Who runs a 20wt here?

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries ...

Mustangs with the 5.0L Coyote V8 still have oil coolers, and Ford specs 5w30 in them but specs 5W-20 for the same engine in the USA.

See where I said Who-Knows? Also where I said that it depends on oil temperatures. Maybe the mustang can keep the oil temperature where it needs to be with both weights with the cooler. Ford engineers would be best to answer that question. One thing is for sure. We can't with world wide owners manuals. Maybe the Thermostats are different temps in different countries.

Same exact engine, no different T-stat, same bearing clearances, etc ... so no other reason to spec 5w30 except Ford knows it's a better oil for the engine, just like other Ford insiders have stated: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-engineering-texts-in-histor#Post4875145



Or the 30wt is running warm enough to still boil off it's moisture and thin enough at these cooler temperatures to suffice whereas the 20wt is more than warm enough to boil off moisture and doesn't thin too much to not provide excellent protection. The sweet spot between both making both just fine because Ford engineered it that way knowing it had to meet what would probably be used in both countries.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Or the 30wt is running warm enough to still boil off it's moisture and thin enough at these cooler temperatures to suffice whereas the 20wt is more than warm enough to boil off moisture and doesn't thin too much to not provide excellent protection. The sweet spot between both making both just fine because Ford engineered it that way knowing it had to meet what would probably be used in both countries.

Is that a new Strawman attempt ... or just grasping at straws?

 

[StevieC]

No that is you not considering that a vehicle might be just fine with either because that is what the designer intended knowing it would need to operate with both as I have tried to explain to all the thickies before but that don't want to listen to reason.

Also consider that there might be more wear from a 30 until it has reached operating temperature and this most often times takes longer with a thicker oil over a thinner oil so any benefit you think you might be realizing could be negated by the longer period of time the lubricant spends outside it's optimal temperature range to provide that increased protection.

But that's fine, I don't care what anyone decides to run at the end of the day, just trying to have a good discussion and make sure that those who take the time to post consider all there is. Just don't want to go around in circles though.

 

[ZeeOSix]

It is a good discussion, even though it does go in circles at times.

Originally Posted by StevieC
Also consider that there might be more wear from a 30 until it has reached operating temperature and this most often times takes longer with a thicker oil over a thinner oil so any benefit you think you might be realizing could be negated by the longer period of time the lubricant spends outside it's optimal temperature range to provide that increased protection.


The viscosity curve for 5w30 vs 5W-20 isn't going to make any real difference during warm-up (plot them out on Windman's site). But it's the extra wear protection headroom you get with the 5w30 on the hot end. The bump in HTHS can a difference in the level of protection.

 

[StevieC]

I was just getting at that there are many things to consider rather than just running to a 30wt because of some papers. There are a number of factors and yes the paper is correct for what it studied and showed but that might not be applicable to all engines and situations and certainly the benefits that seem to come out of running a 30wt most likely won't be realized until way beyond normal junk point for vehicles and then even more miles after that because the wear seems to be really minute but the danger is all the wear that could happen if the 30wt oil spends more time outside of the optimal temperature zone in and engine that would have run just fine on a 20wt.

Anyway... This is my stop.

 

[StevieC]

Sorry saw the viscosity and HTHS part afterward.

In cooler ambient temperatures the sump might have a hard time keeping the optimal temperature thus making it harder for the oil to boil off its moisture and possibly keeping out of the optimal thickness for enhanced protection. Sure not a problem for places like Arizona or South Texas but certainly here in the great white north. I ran a 5w20 in my Journey and was lucky enough it had an oil temperature monitor. I was lucky if I could keep it in the 90C range in the late fall to spring even on the highway. In the Summer no problem it would run up to 117c at the most but that was after hours on the highway in 90F summers. It would have been far worse with a 30wt in there and it didn't even have a cooler.

As for HTHS head room ok if temperatures get even hotter but even then it's probably not a concern as Patman described running the 20wt in an overheated Honda that was just fine thereafter for many miles.

Also regarding HTHS there is no increased benefit over about 2.3 HTHS up to the 3's it would seem unless the engine likes to shear oil like crazy which isn't the case in most properly designed engines operating under normal circumstances or engines that aren't beating up the oils with Turbo's etc.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
... but the danger is all the wear that could happen if the 30wt oil spends more time outside of the optimal temperature zone in and engine that would have run just fine on a 20wt.


Maybe if you ran 15W-50 ... but the viscosity curves during "warm-up" isn't much different between 5W-20 and 5w30. But that slight difference at 100C and beyond can make a big difference in wear protection headroom - see graphs below. My whole point and focus is the benefit of the added protection headroom involved which is not a bad thing for my liking anyway.

Originally Posted by StevieC
Also regarding HTHS there is no increased benefit over about 2.3 HTHS up to the 3's it would seem unless the engine likes to shear oil like crazy which isn't the case in most properly designed engines operating under normal circumstances or engines that aren't beating up the oils with Turbo's etc.


It's still about protection headroom. And yes, oil shearing and fuel dilution is certainly part of the equation. And some engines shear oil more than others, and some oils shear down more than others (Motorcraft shears quite a bit for instance). Take that all the factors into consideration and it doesn't take much to eat up some of that protection headroom, especially if you're starting with an oil that is around 2.6~2.7 HTHS like most xW-20 oils are.

 

[StevieC]

Thank for that, but did you see where I talked about my Journey oil temperature in the cooler temperatures on a 20 weight? That would put them at 9ish cst at 90c for a 20wt versus 12ish cst at 90c for a 30wt. Not crazy different but not optimal considering the optimum temperature is 100c.

Also if you look at the charts the 20wt and 30wt are almost identical. Benfit would be the 20wt would heat up faster than the 30wt getting it to the optimal range quicker.

Everything is so close that it would be dependent on the the factors I listed. Engine, driving conditions etc. to really be able to see if there is a benefit and even if there was with this being so close it wouldn't add up for like I said way beyond the vehicles life and even the guy that runs it longer than typical life wouldn't see the benefit.

 

[Shannow]

ZeeOSix...boxing at made up shadows(*) grows tiring after a while...I get it, and support you.

(*)Not enough straw to build a cogent strawman, but can clutch enough to make a paintbrush and paint a shadow of something that doesn't exist.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Also if you look at the bottom chart the 20wt and 30wt are almost identical. Benfit would be the 20wt would heat up faster than the 30wt getting it to the optimal range quicker.


No it wouldn't the 30 heats up quicker, and the 50 even quicker than that.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Thank for that, but did you see where I talked about my Journey oil temperature in the cooler temperatures on a 20 weight? That would put them at 9ish cst at 90c for a 20wt versus 12ish cst at 90c for a 30wt. Not crazy different but not optimal considering the optimum temperature is 100c.


Yep, and that 20 at 90C would be like 30 at 100C (which is probably a good thing)... you think having 30 at 90C is going to really hurt an engine? It would be like 15W-50 at 115C. What about all those Mustangs running 5W-50 (Boss 302 and Shelby GT500).

 

[StevieC]

Show me this chart with a time curve to achieve these temperatures between these 3 oil weights.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Thank for that, but did you see where I talked about my Journey oil temperature in the cooler temperatures on a 20 weight? That would put them at 9ish cst at 90c for a 20wt versus 12ish cst at 90c for a 30wt. Not crazy different but not optimal considering the optimum temperature is 100c.


Yep, and that 20 at 90C would be like 30 at 100C (which is probably a good thing)... you think having 30 at 90C is going to really hurt an engine? It would be like 15W-50 at 115C. What about all those Mustangs running 5W-50 (Boss 302 and Shelby GT500).


I didn't say hurt the engine... I said it would spend longer outside the optimal range because it doesn't heat up as quickly. This can delay moisture boil off. Also being outside the optimal range it might not encourage the best level of protection but won't "hurt" the engine right away but over the many hundreds of thousands of usable service life it could add up the same as the 20wt arguement.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Shannow
ZeeOSix...boxing at made up shadows(*) grows tiring after a while...I get it, and support you.

(*)Not enough straw to build a cogent strawman, but can clutch enough to make a paintbrush and paint a shadow of something that doesn't exist.


Here we go again with you stocking my threads you big baby. People can disagree you know. Get over it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Show me this chart with a time curve to achieve these temperatures.


it all depends on the exact motor, how much oil is in the sump (etc), and the RPM and loads incurred in said motor during the warm-up period. Remember that a coolant-to-oil heat exchanger will help mitigate the warm-up time difference.

Can you (or anyone else) dig up a study that shows the extent of wear difference due to running different oil viscosity in the same exact engine under the same exact warm-up conditions? Even though it might take a little longer to warm-up the oil as the viscosity increases, it doesn't necessarily mean more wear is occurring - maybe if you're doing cold start-ups at -25F with really heavy oil. I'd like to see a study if it exists for legitimacy interest since you've latched on to that argument - maybe it's been shown with technical data in other discussions, but I don't recall seeing technical details & data.

 

[nap]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Don't forget too that the Sienna and my Highlander which both spec 0w20 also have engine oil coolers. Perhaps Toyota is controlling how hot and how cold the oil gets to keep it in the right range. "Proper Engineering"

You still haven't satisfactorily explained why, while having so much trust in the Toyota engineers as to wholeheartedly adopt the 0W20, you also dissmis the manual page where they tell you to use a heavier oil for higher speed / load driving.....

 

[StevieC]

I always said "Might" and didn't say it was for sure causing more wear and I talked more about moisture boil off which needs temperature to happen and increase warm-up times leaves this moisture in the oil longer to deteriorate the oil.

As for the temperature curve chart. Do they not have one engine with the same set of conditions operated with 3 oils as somewhat of an indicator?

As I mentioned in my real world case with a 20wt oil and no cooler and no heat exchanger either the oil spent most of the time around 90c in the cooler temperatures and 117c in the hot summer weather so while the summer would have been better with the 30wt I'm sure keeping it closer to the optimal 100c the winter would have been even worse keeping it further from the optimal range and below the already struggling 90c the 20wt was at.

Now this is most likely poor engineering on FCA's part for not including a heat exchanger and cooler in it to keep the temperatures stable as my Highlander has which also spec's a 20wt but it didn't seem to matter on the UOA I posted which showed really great wear metals in the observable range so surely the other metals we couldn't see should be decent as well and when bearings are spewing metal I'm sure they aren't spewing it in ranges they discriminate against. Again just an indicator but not the whole story unless I was prepared to dismantle the engine and check all parts for absolute measurements.

FWIW I sell vertical turning lathes / machines and enormous horizontal borring/milling machines by day, so precision measurements, tolerances, absolute measurements, clearances etc. is nothing new to me because I'm involved in it all day long selling to OE part makers, aerospace, power generation, job shops, machine shops etc. Both in temperature controlled machining environments and non. We also have our 3D printing machines that can print solid metal parts not far off from final machining spec so very little needs to be taken off to get it within exact spec that is usually 3 times stronger because we can control the pellet material precisely versus casting. (really cool stuff).

What I'm getting at with that is that the machining and materials used along with the precision machining is so good today I don't think we need to be concerned about it as much as we did yesteryear.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
so while the summer would have been better with the 30wt I'm sure keeping it closer to the optimal 100c the winter would have been even worse keeping it further from the optimal range and below the already struggling 90c the 20wt was at.


30 grade would have been warmer than the 20...

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by nap
Originally Posted by StevieC
Don't forget too that the Sienna and my Highlander which both spec 0w20 also have engine oil coolers. Perhaps Toyota is controlling how hot and how cold the oil gets to keep it in the right range. "Proper Engineering"

You still haven't satisfactorily explained why, while having so much trust in the Toyota engineers as to wholeheartedly adopt the 0W20, you also dissmis the manual page where they tell you to use a heavier oil for higher speed / load driving.....

Yep that is why I will be running thicker oil.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Don't forget too that the Sienna and my Highlander which both spec 0w20 also have engine oil coolers. Perhaps Toyota is controlling how hot and how cold the oil gets to keep it in the right range. "Proper Engineering"

Do not forget that same engines with oil cooler are in Europe coming with ACEA A3/B3 B4 recommendation.