Who runs a 20wt here?
- Thread starter StevieC
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35-40 years ago, when auto manufacturers were recommending 5w30, (per CAFE !!!), the old timers were predicting roads clogged with broken down vehicles due to this 'thin' oil. Of course, it didn't happen and now some people hold 5w30 in high regard as if it's God's Golden Elixir.
What's confusing to me is I keep seeing these "thin vs thick" comparisons about 5w20 and 5w30.
Here it is:
5w30 = thin oil
5w20 = thinner oil (10-15% thinner depending on brand)
It's not like the difference is like milk and maple syrup.
What's confusing to me is I keep seeing these "thin vs thick" comparisons about 5w20 and 5w30.
Here it is:
5w30 = thin oil
5w20 = thinner oil (10-15% thinner depending on brand)
It's not like the difference is like milk and maple syrup.
Originally Posted by chainblu
35-40 years ago, when auto manufacturers were recommending 5w30, (per CAFE !!!), the old timers were predicting roads clogged with broken down vehicles due to this 'thin' oil. Of course, it didn't happen and now some people hold 5w30 in high regard as if it's God's Golden Elixir.
What's confusing to me is I keep seeing these "thin vs thick" comparisons about 5w20 and 5w30.
Here it is:
5w30 = thin oil
5w20 = thinner oil (10-15% thinner depending on brand)
It's not like the difference is like milk and maple syrup.
What's your recommendation for time and/or mileage change interval of 1%, 2%, and whole? How about buttermilk?
35-40 years ago, when auto manufacturers were recommending 5w30, (per CAFE !!!), the old timers were predicting roads clogged with broken down vehicles due to this 'thin' oil. Of course, it didn't happen and now some people hold 5w30 in high regard as if it's God's Golden Elixir.
What's confusing to me is I keep seeing these "thin vs thick" comparisons about 5w20 and 5w30.
Here it is:
5w30 = thin oil
5w20 = thinner oil (10-15% thinner depending on brand)
It's not like the difference is like milk and maple syrup.
What's your recommendation for time and/or mileage change interval of 1%, 2%, and whole? How about buttermilk?
Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
What's your recommendation for time and/or mileage change interval of 1%, 2%, and whole? How about buttermilk?
I drink skim, skim on cereal. Whole milk for ice cream maker and buttermilk for biscuits.
What's your recommendation for time and/or mileage change interval of 1%, 2%, and whole? How about buttermilk?
I drink skim, skim on cereal. Whole milk for ice cream maker and buttermilk for biscuits.
Originally Posted by spasm3
Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
What's your recommendation for time and/or mileage change interval of 1%, 2%, and whole? How about buttermilk?
I drink skim, skim on cereal. Whole milk for ice cream maker and buttermilk for biscuits.
^^^^^^
Right on. I'm with you on this.
Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
What's your recommendation for time and/or mileage change interval of 1%, 2%, and whole? How about buttermilk?
I drink skim, skim on cereal. Whole milk for ice cream maker and buttermilk for biscuits.
^^^^^^
Right on. I'm with you on this.
Originally Posted by chainblu
... now some people hold 5w30 in high regard as if it's God's Golden Elixir.
...
5w30 = thin oil
5w20 = thinner oil (10-15% thinner depending on brand)
It's not like the difference is like milk and maple syrup.
Right, or between Golden Elixer and "water."
There's not actually a huge difference (and that difference will often be partially reduced by the 20 running slightly less hot). 5w30 was a compromise between efficiency and wear, too.
... now some people hold 5w30 in high regard as if it's God's Golden Elixir.
...
5w30 = thin oil
5w20 = thinner oil (10-15% thinner depending on brand)
It's not like the difference is like milk and maple syrup.
Right, or between Golden Elixer and "water."
There's not actually a huge difference (and that difference will often be partially reduced by the 20 running slightly less hot). 5w30 was a compromise between efficiency and wear, too.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
The multitudes of technical papers all pretty much say there is less wear with higher viscosity - not including any anti-wear factors which skews the whole discussion - talking just about the oil viscosity here.
No. https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/00368790010352691
Are engines ever started up, maybe even when cold or cool? Yes. Therefore, as CCS goes down (thinner oils), wear rate also goes down. Clearly. This is not small. It's a factor for most engine duty cycles.
Also, HTHS can get as low as about 2.5 in most engines, thinner than most 0w20 oils, before bearing wear suffers. Cylinder wear in a hot engine can be higher from lower viscosity.
On balance, when you sum it all up, this total situation is why we often see great UOA's on thin oil.
![[Linked Image]](https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/1262/filename/HTHS%20Stribeck.jpg "[Linked Image]")
The multitudes of technical papers all pretty much say there is less wear with higher viscosity - not including any anti-wear factors which skews the whole discussion - talking just about the oil viscosity here.
No. https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/00368790010352691
Are engines ever started up, maybe even when cold or cool? Yes. Therefore, as CCS goes down (thinner oils), wear rate also goes down. Clearly. This is not small. It's a factor for most engine duty cycles.
Also, HTHS can get as low as about 2.5 in most engines, thinner than most 0w20 oils, before bearing wear suffers. Cylinder wear in a hot engine can be higher from lower viscosity.
On balance, when you sum it all up, this total situation is why we often see great UOA's on thin oil.
Last edited:
edyvw
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Toyota calles in my Sienna for 0W20, while they called in the same engine in previous Sienna for 5W30. In Europe they call for ACEA A3/B3 B4.
Will switch to 5W30 to see how smooth will be running. Will it die running on 0W20? Considering gusto when I press accelerator I am confident it will be OK running on Costco brand extra virgin oil.
Will switch to 5W30 to see how smooth will be running. Will it die running on 0W20? Considering gusto when I press accelerator I am confident it will be OK running on Costco brand extra virgin oil.
^^^ Guess it depends where the info is cherry picked from. First graph shows decreased wear with increased HTHS. Second and third graphs shows ring wear as a function of HTHS at two different oil temperatures (90C is below "normal" oil temp for most engines). Other engine components need to be looked at also to see how viscosity affects wear. As the oil temperature goes up, the oil thins down and more wear occurs. This is where the protection "headroom" comes in with a thicker oil. As mentioned before, I don't like operating right at the edge of "adequate protection" in case oil temps rise from more than benign driving conditions - or fuel dilution if an engine has that tendency. I'll go with oil that has HTHS over at least 3.0.
Don't forget too that the Sienna and my Highlander which both spec 0w20 also have engine oil coolers. Perhaps Toyota is controlling how hot and how cold the oil gets to keep it in the right range. "Proper Engineering"
Originally Posted by StevieC
Don't forget too that the Sienna and my Highlander which both spec 0w20 also have engine oil coolers. Perhaps Toyota is controlling how hot and how cold the oil gets to keep it in the right range. "Proper Engineering"
Good point. The equation between 20wt oil and any engine has to include the technology and engineering of that power train. Things like different alloys and Re-designed rings and coatings all contribute to the end result. So it is not a simple answer at all.
Don't forget too that the Sienna and my Highlander which both spec 0w20 also have engine oil coolers. Perhaps Toyota is controlling how hot and how cold the oil gets to keep it in the right range. "Proper Engineering"
Good point. The equation between 20wt oil and any engine has to include the technology and engineering of that power train. Things like different alloys and Re-designed rings and coatings all contribute to the end result. So it is not a simple answer at all.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Who runs a 20wt here. What have your experiences been with it? Taking a poll.
Eleven pages just to debate a point about which those who've learned much here should have little to disagree on.
Do higher HTHS oils provide better engine protection?
Of course.
Do lower HTHS oils provide adequate wear protection for any reasonable vehicle life?
Of course they do.
Will a higher or lower HTHS oil provide better fuel economy?
We all know the answer to that.
Knowing all of the above, I've used twenty grades in the two vehicles we have for which these grades are recommended.
The real tradeoff is a little increment in wear for a little increment in fuel economy.
Since neither vehicle is likely to seriously test the life of the engine in our ownership, this tradeoff makes sense, as it does for most owners, even those who, like me tend to run their cars for more years and miles than most.
To pretend that lower HTHS oils don't in any way result in incremental wear is silly, though.
Who runs a 20wt here. What have your experiences been with it? Taking a poll.
Eleven pages just to debate a point about which those who've learned much here should have little to disagree on.
Do higher HTHS oils provide better engine protection?
Of course.
Do lower HTHS oils provide adequate wear protection for any reasonable vehicle life?
Of course they do.
Will a higher or lower HTHS oil provide better fuel economy?
We all know the answer to that.
Knowing all of the above, I've used twenty grades in the two vehicles we have for which these grades are recommended.
The real tradeoff is a little increment in wear for a little increment in fuel economy.
Since neither vehicle is likely to seriously test the life of the engine in our ownership, this tradeoff makes sense, as it does for most owners, even those who, like me tend to run their cars for more years and miles than most.
To pretend that lower HTHS oils don't in any way result in incremental wear is silly, though.
No argument that the 20wt has incremental increase in wear over the 30wt. My argument was that it doesn't matter unless the goal is to drive the engine way way way past the average junk point of 200,000 miles to say 500,000 miles or a 1,000,000 miles sort of thing and even then it might be fine because it depends on a bunch of variables that don't apply to all engines. And that assumes that the engine wasn't properly engineered to run on this thinner grade oil which might make this extra wear even less of a concern.
Further using a thicker oil just in case, with a higher HTHS or better MOFT might have other consequences like increased wear until the oil gets to the proper temperature and staying at that proper temperature in cooler ambient temperatures. Not necessarily winter only temperatures but cool enough to encourage colder oil sump temperatures. It could also shorten the usable life of the oil if it can't get to the proper temperature as well with the oil holding onto increased moisture and not being allowed to boil this off.
Like I said too many variables that reading world wide owners manuals and using a something from a non-cafe country in fear isn't the right answer.
Using what your climate, engine design, and driving pattern dictates is a better approach. Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries but both have the same end result because the lubricant is kept in the right temperature range to do it's job thanks to proper engineering with the addition of oil coolers for thinner weight spec's.
Further using a thicker oil just in case, with a higher HTHS or better MOFT might have other consequences like increased wear until the oil gets to the proper temperature and staying at that proper temperature in cooler ambient temperatures. Not necessarily winter only temperatures but cool enough to encourage colder oil sump temperatures. It could also shorten the usable life of the oil if it can't get to the proper temperature as well with the oil holding onto increased moisture and not being allowed to boil this off.
Like I said too many variables that reading world wide owners manuals and using a something from a non-cafe country in fear isn't the right answer.
Using what your climate, engine design, and driving pattern dictates is a better approach. Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries but both have the same end result because the lubricant is kept in the right temperature range to do it's job thanks to proper engineering with the addition of oil coolers for thinner weight spec's.
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries ...
Mustangs with the 5.0L Coyote V8 still have oil coolers, and Ford specs 5w30 in them but specs 5W-20 for the same engine in the USA.
Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries ...
Mustangs with the 5.0L Coyote V8 still have oil coolers, and Ford specs 5w30 in them but specs 5W-20 for the same engine in the USA.
Does 20W-50 count?
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries ...
Mustangs with the 5.0L Coyote V8 still have oil coolers, and Ford specs 5w30 in them but specs 5W-20 for the same engine in the USA.
See where I said Who-Knows? Also where I said that it depends on oil temperatures. Maybe the mustang can keep the oil temperature where it needs to be with both weights with the cooler. Ford engineers would be best to answer that question. One thing is for sure. We can't with world wide owners manuals. Maybe the Thermostats are different temps in different countries.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries ...
Mustangs with the 5.0L Coyote V8 still have oil coolers, and Ford specs 5w30 in them but specs 5W-20 for the same engine in the USA.
See where I said Who-Knows? Also where I said that it depends on oil temperatures. Maybe the mustang can keep the oil temperature where it needs to be with both weights with the cooler. Ford engineers would be best to answer that question. One thing is for sure. We can't with world wide owners manuals. Maybe the Thermostats are different temps in different countries.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries ...
Mustangs with the 5.0L Coyote V8 still have oil coolers, and Ford specs 5w30 in them but specs 5W-20 for the same engine in the USA.
See where I said Who-Knows? Also where I said that it depends on oil temperatures. Maybe the mustang can keep the oil temperature where it needs to be with both weights with the cooler. Ford engineers would be best to answer that question. One thing is for sure. We can't with world wide owners manuals. Maybe the Thermostats are different temps in different countries.
Same exact engine, no different T-stat, same bearing clearances, etc ... so no other reason to spec 5w30 except Ford knows it's a better oil for the engine, just like other Ford insiders have stated: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-engineering-texts-in-histor#Post4875145
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Who knows maybe the vehicles sold here with oil coolers spec'ed for 20wt's don't have oil coolers and spec 30wt's in other countries ...
Mustangs with the 5.0L Coyote V8 still have oil coolers, and Ford specs 5w30 in them but specs 5W-20 for the same engine in the USA.
See where I said Who-Knows? Also where I said that it depends on oil temperatures. Maybe the mustang can keep the oil temperature where it needs to be with both weights with the cooler. Ford engineers would be best to answer that question. One thing is for sure. We can't with world wide owners manuals. Maybe the Thermostats are different temps in different countries.
Same exact engine, no different T-stat, same bearing clearances, etc ... so no other reason to spec 5w30 except Ford knows it's a better oil for the engine, just like other Ford insiders have stated: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-engineering-texts-in-histor#Post4875145
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