Which is more important: Oil or Filter?

[ARCOgraphite]

I used to think it was oil - then the filter problems started in the mid 2000's.

Sorry. Both or she wont run correctly. Those finicky Asian cars that is. ...

 

[walterjay]

I would say oil. My first new car a VW Beetle had no oil filter. I changed oil every 3,000 miles with 10-30.
At 90,000 when it dropped a valve I broke the engine apart and it was sterling. Looked brand new and I don't see where an oil filter would have changed anything.

 

[Coastie05]

I personally think oil is more important.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted by Burt
(a) Microgreen claims their filters are so effective, that if you change the filter every 6,000 miles and top off, you can go 30,000 mile OCI's.

I don't think you want to do that, but I wouldn't go (b) 30,000 miles changing the oil every 6,000 and staying with the same filter.

Given a choice, which would you go with: a or b?
I've done "B" with the xB in my sig, with an Ultra-but I wouldn't do it with an inferior filter, such as a cellulose Purolator.

 

[deven]

Back in early 2000 the original owner of this site, Bob did an experiment where he ran engines without oil filters and the engines ran just fine. It is hard to find those articles because it used to be on the old www.oildrop servers...

 

[blupupher]

I agree with the question:
Would you rather run your engine with no oil or no oil filter?
For many years cars ran with horrible SA oil and no oil filtration more than a screen.
Running an engine with good oil and a bad filter would just require more frequent changes.
Running an engine with poor oil and a good filter would just require more frequent changes.

 

[RDY4WAR]

So pretty much, there's no reason to run a Fram Ultra or Wix XP if you're going to change it every 5k miles anyway.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by walterjay
I would say oil. My first new car a VW Beetle had no oil filter. I changed oil every 3,000 miles with 10-30.
At 90,000 when it dropped a valve I broke the engine apart and it was sterling. Looked brand new and I don't see where an oil filter would have changed anything.


Filters don't keep engines looking clean inside (ie, varnish and sludge from forming), that's the oil's job with it's additive package. Filters help keep the particulate out of the oil which helps reduce wear. More particulate in the oil correlates to increased wear - every study done shows that correlation. I'm still waiting for someone to show a study where that isn't true and instead shows that dirtier oil reduces wear or doesn't change the rate of wear.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by deven
Back in early 2000 the original owner of this site, Bob did an experiment where he ran engines without oil filters and the engines ran just fine. It is hard to find those articles because it used to be on the old www.oildrop servers...


Doesnt mean there wasn't increased wear happening. Engines can wear a lot (way past factory wear specs) before they actually start showing it.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
So pretty much, there's no reason to run a Fram Ultra or Wix XP if you're going to change it every 5k miles anyway.


I would pretty much agree with that. Any decent oil filter should work for 5K miles.

 

[willbur]

Greetings-

I think the air filter is more important than the oil filter. Makes the job of the oil filter easier by preventing wear producing material from getting into the engine in the first place.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by willbur
Greetings-

I think the air filter is more important than the oil filter. Makes the job of the oil filter easier by preventing wear producing material from getting into the engine in the first place.


There's still oil contamination from combustion blow-by past the rings. The air filter does nothing to help reduce that source of oil contamination.

 

[tig1]

Oil

 

[willbur]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by willbur
Greetings-

I think the air filter is more important than the oil filter. Makes the job of the oil filter easier by preventing wear producing material from getting into the engine in the first place.


There's still oil contamination from combustion blow-by past the rings. The air filter does nothing to help reduce that source of oil contamination.


And your point is...?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that combustion blow by is not the hard abrasive material that scours bearings, cylinder walls, etc. The oil filter catches abrasive contaminants that gets by the air filter and normal engine wear material. I think most of the material that's found in the oil filter makes in in past the air filter. So...IMO oil is more important.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by willbur
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by willbur
Greetings-

I think the air filter is more important than the oil filter. Makes the job of the oil filter easier by preventing wear producing material from getting into the engine in the first place.

There's still oil contamination from combustion blow-by past the rings. The air filter does nothing to help reduce that source of oil contamination.

And your point is...?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that combustion blow by is not the hard abrasive material that scours bearings, cylinder walls, etc. The oil filter catches abrasive contaminants that gets by the air filter and normal engine wear material. I think most of the material that's found in the oil filter makes in in past the air filter. So...IMO oil is more important.


My point is oil gets contaminated from other sources besides the intake air. Of course an air filter is important, but so is an oil filter to catch what might get by the air filter and/or from the other sources of contamination (combustion blow-by, engine wear, etc).

Cleaner oil is better than not (every machinery wear study proves that), and the oil filter is the only thing that actually removes contamination that makes it into the oil, regardless of what that contamination is or where it came from. My viewpoint is if a better filter keeps the oil cleaner, then I'm all for it. I highly doubt I'm going to miss spending $3 more a year on a better oil filter.

The oil is the "life blood" of the engine, so asking if it's more important is basically obtuse. I'm not saying an oil filter is more important than the oil, I already said that earlier in this thread. My point is the oil filter is also important, and for me that means using filters (air and oil) that give me the best filtering efficiency possible.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Cleaner oil is better than not (every machinery wear study proves that), and the oil filter is the only thing that actually removes contamination that makes it into the oil, regardless of what that contamination is or where it came from. My viewpoint is if a better filter keeps the oil cleaner, then I'm all for it. I highly doubt I'm going to miss spending $3 more a year on a better oil filter.

But then there's the issue of running into diminishing returns. OEM oil filters aren't known for small micron ratings and somehow there are engines that seem to be bulletproof using them as well as the specified oil changed regular (but not necessarily frequently).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Cleaner oil is better than not (every machinery wear study proves that), and the oil filter is the only thing that actually removes contamination that makes it into the oil, regardless of what that contamination is or where it came from. My viewpoint is if a better filter keeps the oil cleaner, then I'm all for it. I highly doubt I'm going to miss spending $3 more a year on a better oil filter.

But then there's the issue of running into diminishing returns. OEM oil filters aren't known for small micron ratings and somehow there are engines that seem to be bulletproof using them as well as the specified oil changed regular (but not necessarily frequently).


Doesn't change my desire to use known high efficiency oil filters. Others can use rock catchers if they want, it's their vehicle. Bottom line is that better filter efficiency keeps oil cleaner, that's been shown with ISO particle count data - that's all I need to know to keep oil cleaner than not.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Cleaner oil is better than not (every machinery wear study proves that), and the oil filter is the only thing that actually removes contamination that makes it into the oil, regardless of what that contamination is or where it came from. My viewpoint is if a better filter keeps the oil cleaner, then I'm all for it. I highly doubt I'm going to miss spending $3 more a year on a better oil filter.

But then there's the issue of running into diminishing returns. OEM oil filters aren't known for small micron ratings and somehow there are engines that seem to be bulletproof using them as well as the specified oil changed regular (but not necessarily frequently).


Doesn't change my desire to use known high efficiency oil filters. Others can use rock catchers if they want, it's their vehicle. Bottom line is that better filter efficiency keeps oil cleaner, that's been shown with ISO particle count data - that's all I need to know to keep oil cleaner than not.


Following that logic, would bypass filtration be beneficial to a gas engine?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Following that logic, would bypass filtration be beneficial to a gas engine?


Some guys in the bypass filter forum do run them. Obviously as the OCI is extended, you want the oil to be kept as clean as possible. Think of it as "contamination level times miles ran". If people changed oil every 500 miles you wouldn't need much of a filter compared to running the oil for 10K or more miles.

That is Microgreen's whole "claim to fame", change the high efficiency oil filter every 10K miles and the oil can be ran to 30K miles. I think someone on BITOG actually tried that out (I personally wouldn't). That's also why a lot of the high efficiency synthetic oil filters are recommended by the manufacturers for longer/extended OCIs. They want to minimize the "contamination level times miles ran" factor.

 

[deven]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by deven
Back in early 2000 the original owner of this site, Bob did an experiment where he ran engines without oil filters and the engines ran just fine. It is hard to find those articles because it used to be on the old www.oildrop servers...


Doesnt mean there wasn't increased wear happening. Engines can wear a lot (way past factory wear specs) before they actually start showing it.

My point was that you can get away without using an oil filter for one or two oci's or even more but try getting away without using oil for even one oci. Hence oil is more important than an oil filter.