Funny you mention it Pablo, timing is everything for my OC. It seems obvious to time your OC to get through the winter w/o getting under the car in the cold. Obviously that does not apply to everyone. People rich enough to get quality oil service also don't seem inclined to take time to do it super-often. At 3000mi, I would need 7 OC or more a year at my driving rate, add to that family and friend's cars, it's too much. I was going for 6 month OC, that came to 11k with GC. That seemed to be pushing it, but I was paying the dealer at that time, twice a year. Now do it myself and am resigned to 3x a year, every 4 months, about 7500-8000 miles. Dec Jan Feb Mar/ Apr May Jun Jul/ Aug Sept Oct Nov. Some guys will also change visc for seasons, I do that too. The bottom line is I don't see owners of expensive super-premium (leased) cars who drive a lot going in 7 times a year for 3000 miles OC. Paying the premuim dealership too frequently is not cost-effective either. I've heard of $150 changes on basic Euro cars. To me, that person is the most likely candidate for extended OCI.
When people are initially most dissapointed with extended OCI's...............
- Thread starter Pablo
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You 1. have way too much time on your hands, 2. dont have enough cars 3. dont run enough miles. So for me cars are a love hate relationship. 5 cars with app 66k per year. Given your cycle schedule Id be under 22 times per year, when 4/5 times per year will do.
Superglide,
I would do a UOA now or just around 6000 miles into using this oil,
even Amsoil recommends performing a UOA between the 2000 and 7500 mile mark, then another UOA at 11000 to 12500 miles into this oil.
If you have not done a UOA on your car you should just to be sure everything is ok, not trying to get you worried just safe.
I agree with Bill. $20 is a chunk of change, but still tiny compared to the value of the car.
quote:
Originally posted by ruking77:
You 1. have way too much time on your hands, 2. dont have enough cars 3. dont run enough miles. So for me cars are a love hate relationship. 5 cars with app 66k per year. Given your cycle schedule Id be under 22 times per year, when 4/5 times per year will do.
hahaha...well, you're right. I have 1 car and drive about 15K per year.
If I followed the old 3/3 routine, I'd be doing more than one oil change per month. I don't have time for that, at least not if I want to spend any of my precious few extra minutes with my family. Beyond the "incentives" of time savings, my UOAs have clearly shown that I'm well within safe on my plan. I inspect my cars regularly anyway, and don't need an oil change to remind me to do so.
One thing to add to Pablo's original thought: I'm not sure that many folks really appreciate how much oil stays behind at change time. In the Toyota Camry (my previous vehicle), the owner's manual advertises two fill figures, for changes with and without filter changes. The service manual, however lists a third: oil fill amount after complete engine disassembly and reassembly. That figure, 5.8 qts for the V-6 IIRC, is almost a full quart above the normal oil and filter change figure. Thus, initial attempts at long OCIs may generate poor, or at least compromised, results because of the presence of some old, dirty, conventional oil not meant to endure long OCI. I would not try a real long OCI until the second or third fill of the long OCI oil.
One thing to add to Pablo's original thought: I'm not sure that many folks really appreciate how much oil stays behind at change time. In the Toyota Camry (my previous vehicle), the owner's manual advertises two fill figures, for changes with and without filter changes. The service manual, however lists a third: oil fill amount after complete engine disassembly and reassembly. That figure, 5.8 qts for the V-6 IIRC, is almost a full quart above the normal oil and filter change figure. Thus, initial attempts at long OCIs may generate poor, or at least compromised, results because of the presence of some old, dirty, conventional oil not meant to endure long OCI. I would not try a real long OCI until the second or third fill of the long OCI oil.
Two pointsquote:
Originally posted by ruking77:
You 1. have way too much time on your hands, 2. dont have enough cars 3. dont run enough miles. So for me cars are a love hate relationship. 5 cars with app 66k per year. Given your cycle schedule Id be under 22 times per year, when 4/5 times per year will do.
To address Pablo's observation and ratio. I think a more germane comparison would be: does 22 oil changes over 4/5 offer significantly different benefits? What are they?
Cost, if one brings it to a vendor, it is basically 22 times x 20 dollars =440. vs 4/5 x20 = 80-100. What benefits does up to 4x the cost bring?
Another good reason why starting with a synthetic base line makes a lot of sense.
I am actually doing that with a new 2004 Honda Civic VP. I ran a 10k OCI per oem owners manual and shop data. The other recommendation is 20k oci for (oil) filter. So I switched to Mobil One 0w20 at 10k and was/am mindful of the probability of residual OCI oil. So I will change the filter and Mobil One 0w20 at 20k and go to 40k with the new filter and much more pure Mobil One 0w20.
Synthetics don't have the volatility that mineral oils do, so they stay intact longer.
Having said that, the junk in the oil accummulates no matter what oil is in the engine. I would change often if in dusty conditions or if I had fuel dilution, the two constants for engine wear that I have seen.
I don't think its much more complicated than that for most of us!
Having said that, the junk in the oil accummulates no matter what oil is in the engine. I would change often if in dusty conditions or if I had fuel dilution, the two constants for engine wear that I have seen.
I don't think its much more complicated than that for most of us!
The "junk in oil" thing is a valid point, but it has always been used as a wild card by the syn non-believers as a reason why longer OCIs are, in their opinions, a bad thing. The way to get a handle on this is to order particle counts along with the usual UOA tests, which of course, costs some more. I have found via particle counts that at least in my two healthy engines, the "junk" accumulates very slowly. Both my VQ35 and the 2UZ in our Sequoia have very small amounts of "junk." In fact, even after 13 months of short trips (but only about 10k miles), our Sequoia's particle counts were so low that the oil was within spec for aircraft hydraulic fluid (i.e. very, very clean). But yes, in dusty or other unusually dirty conditions, I'd still change early just to be safe.
For a VW/Audi 1.8T w/ 4 qt. sump, one of the prime "sludge/coke monster" engines, 3k miles /5k km city or "by the book" 5k mi / 8k km highway still strikes me as reasonable.
What I do not understand, however, is why sludging and coking reportedly rarely affects 1.8Ts in Europe, even though the problem is pandemic in the U.S.
What I do not understand, however, is why sludging and coking reportedly rarely affects 1.8Ts in Europe, even though the problem is pandemic in the U.S.
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Originally posted by John_E:
The same dealers who put VW-branded Castrol dino in 1.8Ts for years?
Incorrect viscosity? Too long OCI?
My VW 1.8 Gas Jetta needed 20w-50 dino year round. Anything else and it let me know i had done it wrong. Car is still running strong at 250,000 miles. However for the first 225,000 miles (while i owned it) the OCI was NEVER more than 2,500 miles. It was redlined on a daily basis for 11 years while i owned it. The engine and transmission on that thing were excellent.
With German cars it seems we can not follow the "thin is in" and the "leave it in" mantras that seems to work with Asian and American cars.
Re:VW's...
I'm guessing climate also plays a part. In Germany they dont seem to have a lot of the problems we have here. Melted window regulators, heat-cracked moisture barriers inside the doors making for the well known "VW-Mildew Funk" and lots of other things. They also typically use smaller engines in their cars.
I'm guessing climate also plays a part. In Germany they dont seem to have a lot of the problems we have here. Melted window regulators, heat-cracked moisture barriers inside the doors making for the well known "VW-Mildew Funk" and lots of other things. They also typically use smaller engines in their cars.
In fleet service where longer oci's are planned, 10-12k miles, they work well, keeping the engine alive until the bean counters cut the cord, which may be quite a bit before the useful life is done. These engines run well and pass smog and appear to be ok.
There is a problems, though. If we have to tear into the engine running longer oci's, to do a repair, it shows a more wear than a similar engine running 5-7.5k oci's. This increased wear shows up in valve gear, piston rings and cam drive components, if present. If the engine running the longer oci is not torn down and is working ok, it usually makes it until it's sold. This is not scientific but is reflected in repair bills that include more re-work and new parts for the longer oci engines. Overall, it's cheaper to start with a new engine and run longer oci's and take the repairs as they come, if any. Higher mileage engines that are on shorter oci's are never switched to a longer oci.
There is a problems, though. If we have to tear into the engine running longer oci's, to do a repair, it shows a more wear than a similar engine running 5-7.5k oci's. This increased wear shows up in valve gear, piston rings and cam drive components, if present. If the engine running the longer oci is not torn down and is working ok, it usually makes it until it's sold. This is not scientific but is reflected in repair bills that include more re-work and new parts for the longer oci engines. Overall, it's cheaper to start with a new engine and run longer oci's and take the repairs as they come, if any. Higher mileage engines that are on shorter oci's are never switched to a longer oci.
Let me clear up my post. I will change the oil at 25,000 miles on the truck, not on the oil. That will be a 12,500 mile oci. My drive is all highway 60-70 mph 152 miles daily. The oil will be in use 4.5 months, then I'll do a uoa On the amsoil at 12,500 miles and drain and refill. With that kind of driving the uoa should be great.
I did that for awhile....my back went out long before car or the oil. I just say Gawd (PC) bless and Gud (PC) luck!
If you can tell me where i can get my oil changed for me, using full synthetic Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec for 20.00 i'll go there!
My point was regular dino oil cost approx 1.00-1.50 per quart. Full synthetic cost 4.99 and up per quart. Every oil change service place i've ever been to charges a great deal more if you want anything other than their bulk oil, and even more than that if you want synthetic.
I'm not a synthetic basher. I think synthetic oils are great! However i would never leave any oil, no matter how good, in my car for 20K miles. Having said that, it just does not make financial sense to me to use synthetic given the fact i dont live in Alaska or the Australian Outback, nor do i do any kind of racing or competative driving (well, other than the rare 100MPH sprint down the freeway).
I more than accept that not everyones driving habits and needs are the same as mine, what i'm saying is for "me" it doesn't make sense to use synthetics.
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