From what few oil analysis i have...there is no way to know strictly off the report. Once I mislabeled 2 different oil samples. Doesnt really matter anyway because the term synthetic is just a sales pitch...I love using synthetics too but I am beginning to second guess it all! How can some one spend say $30 for some long drain "synthetic" motor oil and then spend $50 bucks for acouple oil reports so you know if that oil is still good. You wind up with $80 bucks in an oil change and knowing you could have changed that same oil for probably $15 bucks with a top shelf dino and pass on the uoa, just dump it at 5k and save that and change it again. Synthetic mite be "superior" in all aspects but that doesnt guarantee long life of your engine!
What specs reveal a syn oil is a true syn?
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Zeus103363, You said how can we spend $30 on an OC and $50 on a couple of reports to see if the oil is still good. Well I don't spend the $50. I have done 10K OCIs for 34 years and did two UOAs about 3-4 years ago for the novelty of it. Unless I suspected a coolant leak into the engine or a faulty injector, I would never do a UOA. You see, you spend as much or more for your two OCs with dino as I do with M1 oils.
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The tests typically run in a UOA will not conclusively distinguish Groups III, IV, and V. Gas chromatography will easily identify and quantify PAO, esters, and mineral oil, but in most cases will not distinguish Group III from Groups I & II.
Tom NJ
Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: tig1
Zeus103363, You said how can we spend $30 on an OC and $50 on a couple of reports to see if the oil is still good. Well I don't spend the $50. I have done 10K OCIs for 34 years and did two UOAs about 3-4 years ago for the novelty of it. Unless I suspected a coolant leak into the engine or a faulty injector, I would never do a UOA. You see, you spend as much or more for your two OCs with dino as I do with M1 oils.
OFF TOPIC! To reply, I have used Mobil 1 for years my self. Never had a engine problem either. I also used valvoline dino for .98 cents per quart, and didn't have any problems with that either. My point is synthetics costs are exceding there usefullness. Take the cheapest quart of dino vs. any top shelf synthetic. Both have to pass the same api standard, but one costs triple, sometime 4 fold the cost of dino. PYB is a favorit, lets use it, at $2.50 a quart at freds. $15 bucks for an oil change. Thats 6 quarts. Mobil 1, or PP, $34.98 for a 5 quart jub + extra quart $7 dollars=$41.98. I can change my oil with PYB twice and have cash left over for 1 change of Mobil 1, or PP, or any of the top shelf synthetics. I did 4 UOA's and didn't get any useful information myself, but there are a lot of guys out there that have them done regularly, and that can run the price up too. All b.s. aside, can you show hard proof, not numbers on a sheet of paper, but hard proof that using synthetics will extend the life of any given motor? I know a honda that slung a rod at 32K on synthetics, and my dad has a old chevy with close to 300K on nothing but havoline dino.
Zeus103363, You said how can we spend $30 on an OC and $50 on a couple of reports to see if the oil is still good. Well I don't spend the $50. I have done 10K OCIs for 34 years and did two UOAs about 3-4 years ago for the novelty of it. Unless I suspected a coolant leak into the engine or a faulty injector, I would never do a UOA. You see, you spend as much or more for your two OCs with dino as I do with M1 oils.
OFF TOPIC! To reply, I have used Mobil 1 for years my self. Never had a engine problem either. I also used valvoline dino for .98 cents per quart, and didn't have any problems with that either. My point is synthetics costs are exceding there usefullness. Take the cheapest quart of dino vs. any top shelf synthetic. Both have to pass the same api standard, but one costs triple, sometime 4 fold the cost of dino. PYB is a favorit, lets use it, at $2.50 a quart at freds. $15 bucks for an oil change. Thats 6 quarts. Mobil 1, or PP, $34.98 for a 5 quart jub + extra quart $7 dollars=$41.98. I can change my oil with PYB twice and have cash left over for 1 change of Mobil 1, or PP, or any of the top shelf synthetics. I did 4 UOA's and didn't get any useful information myself, but there are a lot of guys out there that have them done regularly, and that can run the price up too. All b.s. aside, can you show hard proof, not numbers on a sheet of paper, but hard proof that using synthetics will extend the life of any given motor? I know a honda that slung a rod at 32K on synthetics, and my dad has a old chevy with close to 300K on nothing but havoline dino.
Some of the dino UOAs on cars with OLM's have been a little worrying.
Synthetic does give you an extra margin of safety. And it seems to me that engines are getting more and more demanding on oil so this isn't a bad idea.
I personally use synthetics because it is basically not expensive if you get it on rebate and one of my cars requires it.
Synthetic does give you an extra margin of safety. And it seems to me that engines are getting more and more demanding on oil so this isn't a bad idea.
I personally use synthetics because it is basically not expensive if you get it on rebate and one of my cars requires it.
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Worry about buying the best fully formulated product not how they got their. When Ferrari chose Shell to supply an oil for their 19,000 rpm Formula 1 Engines Im sure they didnt care that it was only GIII just that it kept their engines alive.
If you must have a "Real Synthetic" and dont want to get exotic:
G-Oil (Claimed to be Group V made from Beef Tallow)
Amsoil above XL and OEM.
Redline.
If you must have a "Real Synthetic" and dont want to get exotic:
G-Oil (Claimed to be Group V made from Beef Tallow)
Amsoil above XL and OEM.
Redline.
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Originally Posted By: Zeus103363
Both have to pass the same api standard, but one costs triple, sometime 4 fold the cost of dino. PYB is a favorit, lets use it, at $2.50 a quart at freds. $15 bucks for an oil change. Thats 6 quarts. Mobil 1, or PP, $34.98 for a 5 quart jub + extra quart $7 dollars=$41.98.
That's all quite true, and I'm not a big synthetic user. However, I'll play the other side of the fence this time. The high end synthetics, even vanilla M1 5w30, tend to have at least a couple ACEA specs, dexos1, and the Honda turbo spec that conventionals won't meet.
However, that only matters, really, if one needs one or more of those specifications. If one doesn't, or isn't extended OCIs, or doesn't have an overly optimistic OLM, the conventional will do fine.
As for the original question, has anyone mentioned pour point? Oils known to have significant PAO content, like M1 0w-40 and the Delvac 1 line, tend to have ridiculously low pour points.
Both have to pass the same api standard, but one costs triple, sometime 4 fold the cost of dino. PYB is a favorit, lets use it, at $2.50 a quart at freds. $15 bucks for an oil change. Thats 6 quarts. Mobil 1, or PP, $34.98 for a 5 quart jub + extra quart $7 dollars=$41.98.
That's all quite true, and I'm not a big synthetic user. However, I'll play the other side of the fence this time. The high end synthetics, even vanilla M1 5w30, tend to have at least a couple ACEA specs, dexos1, and the Honda turbo spec that conventionals won't meet.
However, that only matters, really, if one needs one or more of those specifications. If one doesn't, or isn't extended OCIs, or doesn't have an overly optimistic OLM, the conventional will do fine.
As for the original question, has anyone mentioned pour point? Oils known to have significant PAO content, like M1 0w-40 and the Delvac 1 line, tend to have ridiculously low pour points.
I love these threads, as both sides have great arguments.
Garak, check out the pour point of M1 V-Twin 20W-50 ... I reckon it's the best VW air cooled oil out there.
That's sort of what I was referring to in the other GrIII thread, the more commonly used synthetics are getting poorer "qualifications"...0W-40 M1 ain't as "good" as it used to be.
Garak, check out the pour point of M1 V-Twin 20W-50 ... I reckon it's the best VW air cooled oil out there.
That's sort of what I was referring to in the other GrIII thread, the more commonly used synthetics are getting poorer "qualifications"...0W-40 M1 ain't as "good" as it used to be.
Yep, that V-Twin has a pretty impressive pour point. The old Royal Purple 15w40 CH-4/SJ had a pour point of -44 C, too. The Delvac 1 ESP ones are around -45 C, too.
In Canada, all I've still ever seen for M1 0w-40 is the SM version. It's pour point is -54 C.
In Canada, all I've still ever seen for M1 0w-40 is the SM version. It's pour point is -54 C.
Our 5w30 shows -45, but that's for the SM. Some sheets are up to date, and some are dated. I know that this will raise some eyebrows here, but at least the M1 is reasonably priced, as far as synthetics go.
That's mainly, however, because it's sold at places one normally wouldn't look for an oil deal, but would be pleasantly surprised if one checked it out.
For non-PCMO/HDEO, Mobil Rarus in ISO 32 has a PP of -54. After my last mention of RP, I just noted that there are no pour points listed for the latest CJ-4 15w40. Their old PCMOs didn't list that, and none of the new API speced ones do, either.
That's mainly, however, because it's sold at places one normally wouldn't look for an oil deal, but would be pleasantly surprised if one checked it out.
For non-PCMO/HDEO, Mobil Rarus in ISO 32 has a PP of -54. After my last mention of RP, I just noted that there are no pour points listed for the latest CJ-4 15w40. Their old PCMOs didn't list that, and none of the new API speced ones do, either.
Dont get me wrong...i am an avid synthetic user. But having to pay such a premium price for a product, and without having a masters degree in chemistry, I should be able to look at any given bottle of synthetic and know by its classification it is superior to any given dino oil product. I suspect if the API would make such a test mandatory some products labeled synthetic would loose the synthetic labeling! I just want to cut through all the marketing hype. Just my two cents...
Originally Posted By: Zeus103363
I suspect if the API would make such a test mandatory some products labeled synthetic would loose the synthetic labeling!
I don't think the API does any policing on labelling a product as synthetic. Really, it doesn't have to be much more than marketing hype, but I trust SOPUS, XOM, etc. to make a decent product, as in a synthetic with "superior" specs to the equivalent conventional.
My view is this. If it's labelled as a synthetic but it has no more certifications than SN/GF-5, I'd wonder why. An exception would be certain lines of boutique oils (i.e. certain Amsoil, RP HPS, Redline, and so forth) which don't pay for much certification at all. Another exception would be certain grades we don't see in conventional, such as 0w-20, 0w-30, 0w-40, and the like.
I suspect if the API would make such a test mandatory some products labeled synthetic would loose the synthetic labeling!
I don't think the API does any policing on labelling a product as synthetic. Really, it doesn't have to be much more than marketing hype, but I trust SOPUS, XOM, etc. to make a decent product, as in a synthetic with "superior" specs to the equivalent conventional.
My view is this. If it's labelled as a synthetic but it has no more certifications than SN/GF-5, I'd wonder why. An exception would be certain lines of boutique oils (i.e. certain Amsoil, RP HPS, Redline, and so forth) which don't pay for much certification at all. Another exception would be certain grades we don't see in conventional, such as 0w-20, 0w-30, 0w-40, and the like.
I can understand that that. I just wish the api would implement some kinda certification for " synthetics" only to prove once and for all if it says synthetic, it is a synthetic. In todays world, any oil company can put the synthetic logo on there products, double or triple the price...and it only be a slight varaition in the formula. If I buy a synthetic, I want to know it is a synthetic...not a gloryfied dino!
Originally Posted By: Zeus103363
If I buy a synthetic, I want to know it is a synthetic...not a gloryfied dino!
I think any lab chemist in any oil company (except maybe in germany) who works with Group III oils on a regular basis and can compare their molecular structures to Group IV PAO and see how close they are would tell you that many Group III base oils are very close and therefore should be classified as "synthetic".
With the official definition of Group V is "any base oil that does not fit into the other 4 categories." I think a lot of people need to broaden their understanding of the API categories. Just my opinion TIFWIW.
All that said I agree that there should be some sort of labeling requirement, however with the complications related to base oil interchange (sometimes - for various reasons, base oils have to change on a per batch level with certain oil formulations), I would imagine that may be the reason why the API has stayed out of it.
If I buy a synthetic, I want to know it is a synthetic...not a gloryfied dino!
I think any lab chemist in any oil company (except maybe in germany) who works with Group III oils on a regular basis and can compare their molecular structures to Group IV PAO and see how close they are would tell you that many Group III base oils are very close and therefore should be classified as "synthetic".
With the official definition of Group V is "any base oil that does not fit into the other 4 categories." I think a lot of people need to broaden their understanding of the API categories. Just my opinion TIFWIW.
All that said I agree that there should be some sort of labeling requirement, however with the complications related to base oil interchange (sometimes - for various reasons, base oils have to change on a per batch level with certain oil formulations), I would imagine that may be the reason why the API has stayed out of it.
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one of the best ways is to look at the flash point. VI, Pour Point and other can be "tricked" by additives. Flash point can not. 99% of the time a synthetic will have a higher flash point than a dino. You have to compare the same types of oils though. Example is you'll need to compare the same type- Non High Mileage and the same weights.
Originally Posted By: Zeus103363
I can understand that that. I just wish the api would implement some kinda certification for " synthetics" only to prove once and for all if it says synthetic, it is a synthetic. In todays world, any oil company can put the synthetic logo on there products, double or triple the price....
For one, though, the oil companies have a significant amount of influence over API standards. If XOM couldn't stop Castrol from marketing a Group III as synthetic, what hope would the API have in doing so against all the major oil companies, all of whom engage in this practice to a significant degree? It would be the tail wagging the dog, and I don't think we'll see that anytime soon.
If the API could even accomplish this, what's to keep the oil companies from continuing with API standards? GM has dexos and Ford and Chrysler have their own specifications. So does Cummins. European automotive manufacturers jumped ship from API standards, use a much diminished reference to ACEA specifications, and, instead, rely on their own proprietary specifications. If the API had any real power to over the oil companies, instead of the reverse we actually see, oil companies could get together with manufacturers to set oil standards outside of API purview.
Even in Europe in general, and German in specific, how important is the "synthetic" label? The oil meets whatever ACEA, VW/Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc. specification. How it meets that isn't all that relevant.
I can understand that that. I just wish the api would implement some kinda certification for " synthetics" only to prove once and for all if it says synthetic, it is a synthetic. In todays world, any oil company can put the synthetic logo on there products, double or triple the price....
For one, though, the oil companies have a significant amount of influence over API standards. If XOM couldn't stop Castrol from marketing a Group III as synthetic, what hope would the API have in doing so against all the major oil companies, all of whom engage in this practice to a significant degree? It would be the tail wagging the dog, and I don't think we'll see that anytime soon.
If the API could even accomplish this, what's to keep the oil companies from continuing with API standards? GM has dexos and Ford and Chrysler have their own specifications. So does Cummins. European automotive manufacturers jumped ship from API standards, use a much diminished reference to ACEA specifications, and, instead, rely on their own proprietary specifications. If the API had any real power to over the oil companies, instead of the reverse we actually see, oil companies could get together with manufacturers to set oil standards outside of API purview.
Even in Europe in general, and German in specific, how important is the "synthetic" label? The oil meets whatever ACEA, VW/Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc. specification. How it meets that isn't all that relevant.
Originally Posted By: DinoLover
What allows Amsoil or the original M1 to go 25k? Is it the additives or the base?
25K isn't realistic in my view. I used M1 5-20 in the seventies and I changed it at 10K with good results. Today M1, as we know, has their EP line with a 15K warranty and I have a friend doing just that in his Windstar 3.8 with no problems. He now has about 155K on the engine, but 25K is another thing all together.
What allows Amsoil or the original M1 to go 25k? Is it the additives or the base?
25K isn't realistic in my view. I used M1 5-20 in the seventies and I changed it at 10K with good results. Today M1, as we know, has their EP line with a 15K warranty and I have a friend doing just that in his Windstar 3.8 with no problems. He now has about 155K on the engine, but 25K is another thing all together.
It's realistic, as long as the 1 year is observed, and the engine is in perfect condition.
5 years or so ago, discussions with Mobil techs, they admitted same, but didn't recommend it.
Wynns were testing M1 in their fleet at one stage, and found it lasted pretty much forever with filter changes (and thus regular replenishment of a fair amount of oil with a 30005 sized filter)
5 years or so ago, discussions with Mobil techs, they admitted same, but didn't recommend it.
Wynns were testing M1 in their fleet at one stage, and found it lasted pretty much forever with filter changes (and thus regular replenishment of a fair amount of oil with a 30005 sized filter)
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