What qualifies a college grad as an Engineer ???

[GMFan]

The typical path is:

1. Get an ABET accredited Bachelors degree in engineering field.
2. Apply to sit for Fundamentals of Engineering Exam.
3. Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam which you are eligible to take anytime after graduation or in your last semester of college. You are then designated by the state as an Engineer Intern or Intern Engineer or Engineer in Training (different states call it one of these but it's the same thing).
4. Gain four years of progressive work experience working under a Licensed Professional Engineer (PE)
5. Apply to sit for the PE exam to the state licensing board.
6. Pass PE exam.
7. Maintain license by continuing education credits and paying the state hoards of $$$.
8. After the above you can stamp drawings for construction however there is a whole set of ethics to abide by. If you are a Mechanical PE but stamp electrical drawings and the building burns down and the board finds out you are in deep trouble and could even go to jail. Technically a mechanical engineer can stamp and electrical drawing as long as they abide by the ethics standards and are competent enough. However if you are not competent you can be in trouble. You also must be insured with liability insurance to stamp drawings. However there are lots of retirees who are in their late 70s who will stamp anything for cash.

Wether or not you need a PE depends widely on the field of engineering. PE is mainly important in the construction industry. Most engineers in electronics design or other fields do not necessarily need a PE.

The above is a run down of the steps - it does vary slightly from state to state.

The Fundamentals of Engineering exam was the hardest exam I ever took. It took me over 1 1/2 years of studying and three attempts to pass it. I was also dumb and waited to take it a bunch of years after graduation. Take the FE exam right after school if you can! Even though I'm an electrical engineer there were all topics of engineering covered on the exam which you must know and understand in order to pass.

Not having a PE is not necessarily a major stigma for an engineer. Some of the best engineers I've worked with were not PEs and some of the dumbest were PEs. Not having a PE in no way means you are not competent in your field. It just means you won't be stamping it and it won't be your butt on the line. Most PEs I know even after 30+ years rarely actually stamp drawings. Usually the owner or principals of a consulting firm who are PEs stamp. Some PEs just get the PE as a resume builder. Some job listings will require an applicant to be a PE.

 

[turtlevette]

This is my opinion. About 20% of degreed engineers (or less) really ever fulfill the true spirit and definition of engineering. Engineers are supposed to build and invent stuff. Very few do. Lots get into sales, many get into management both being a terrible waste. O&M really isn't engineering and teaching which I've done a fair share of, is not engineering.

You have to be bold and do something new with consequences. That's important. There must be consequences. I see so many very conservative types who never venture into this territory. Most Engineers are very conservative boring people that never risk much.

A real engineer makes a mod to a 50 million dollar turbine then gives the order to light it off. Shannow...

I was never really jazzed unless something I was doing could cost me my job.

 

[Mr Nice]

Thanks for the in depth explanations.

I met a director of Engineering Dept (facility manager - carpentry, plumbing, electrician, handy man, painters, etc...) at a hospital. He said he was an 'engineer' so I asked what was his background because of a major remodel of a hospital wing. He said he had a bachelors / masters degree in business and worked in the construction industry for 20 years.

We were in a meeting with hospital COO and CFO about installation of medical equipment and the requirements needed for each room (HVAC, oxygen, air, vacuum, electrical). The facility manager kept calling himself an engineer and he knew exactly how to proceed with architects on this $5 million project.

I didn't want to be rude and call him out in front of everyone.... but I didn't like the fact his 20 years working for a construction company made him an 'engineer'. We find out this project had overlooked important items: no sinks/water in each patient room to wash hands, not enough electrical outlets, etc...

Project is months behind schedule and city had already approved the plans. COO, CFO and CNO can't decide on the color of the floor tiles, lost revenue due to the delays. Finger pointing and corporate asking why things weren't addressed months earlier. This so-called engineer is in the hot seat trying to explain the problems.

 

[Nyogtha]

A company may give someone a title of "Engineer" without any engineering degree involved. However, to advertise your services for hire as an engineer, you need PE certification (or EIT certification for Engineer In Training).

Personally, for the situation you describe, a title of "Facilities Manager" may be more accurate.

I took my EIT (now FE) exam my final semester in college. I never pursued PE certification as there really wasn't a payout in the work and line of work I was doing. If I wanted to be an independent consultant though, PE certification would be important. To work for a consulting firm as an employee doing engineering consulting in my field, PE certification would not be important for me

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
This is my opinion. About 20% of degreed engineers (or less) really ever fulfill the true spirit and definition of engineering. Engineers are supposed to build and invent stuff. Very few do. Lots get into sales, many get into management both being a terrible waste. O&M really isn't engineering and teaching which I've done a fair share of, is not engineering.


turtlevette, one of the problems these days (well the last 15 years at least) is that they started in Oz using high school finishing grades to control access to University degrees...some stupid sort of controlled market.

Everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer, so only the top 3% in high school marks are allowed to apply...next 5% can apply to Engineering, and then teaching can get all the way down to the top 55%.

Not a system that selects by aptitude.

Have had some absolutely woeful engineers come under me, and a few I've had to sit down and offer that if their marks were higher, they would have been a liar lawyer, but this was the next most prestigious job so they went for that...passed the course, but couldn't do the actual job.

They agreed, but pointed out that the path then is to sidestep, zig zag, and one has stated to use fear of being labelled sexist to push into a management position...and it works...spend too much time doing the job as opposed to self marketting, and these twerps skyrocket (and then burst into tiny little shiny pieces, much like the OP has demonstrated in his example).

 

[Joel_MD]

The word "engineer" is definitely a bit squishy. I work as a consultant to the federal government and my company calls me a Systems Engineer, mostly because I work on a systems engineering contract. I don't have an engineering degree, but lots of experience in both the military and industry. About 75% of my fellow systems engineers have engineering degrees; the rest of us tend to be military vets.

When I was growing up in the '70s and '80s my dad had a friend who was one of the best plastics engineers in the country. He was highly sought after for consulting work all over the US, but he didn't have any formal education beyond high school.

 

[GMFan]

Originally Posted By: Joel_MD
The word "engineer" is definitely a bit squishy. I work as a consultant to the federal government and my company calls me a Systems Engineer, mostly because I work on a systems engineering contract. I don't have an engineering degree, but lots of experience in both the military and industry. About 75% of my fellow systems engineers have engineering degrees; the rest of us tend to be military vets.

When I was growing up in the '70s and '80s my dad had a friend who was one of the best plastics engineers in the country. He was highly sought after for consulting work all over the US, but he didn't have any formal education beyond high school.


It really doesn't surprise me. Believe it or not in engineering school you study math, sciences, and other engineering courses but you truly gain the most experience IMHO while working. Engineering school mainly "weeds" people out so to speak but it doesn't mean someone without an engineering degree can't work in an engineering field and be excellent at what they do.

 

[supton]

The company I work basically wants to see the college listed on the resume, even if it's decades past (no idea if HR checks) and now only the experience matters. The paper matters to make it to the door, as it shows dedication and at least the promise that they can learn and do hard abstract things. But we all know that it doesn't mean they necessarily "think" like an engineer.

But that's not a bad thing. Not every job in a heavy engineering company requires a PhD. HR, accounting, purchasing... here there are people who spend most of the day looking at statistics, trend lines, etc. Looking for quality issues. A background in EE helps but isn't critical.

As for me, BSEE coming up on 16 years employment at a semiconductor manufacturer. Mostly simple PCB design, never took a class for it though and still am learning stuff about PCB issues as the years go by. But while the physical thing I make is a circuit board, the "service" I provide to the company is to process the needs of multiple users and come up a product that meets those needs. I "engineer" solutions to problems.

I get sad at the electronics skills I used to know but it pays the bills.

 

[MNgopher]

Lots of folks in this area similar to the folks Mr. Nice described carry position titles like "building engineer" or "facilities engineer". They often work in departments called "Engineering". There is nothing technically illegal about it (in this state at least). In this state, only the use of the term "Professional Engineer" is regulated (as well as several other non engineering terms that I won't get into.)

I think the major take home from this thread is that the legal definition and the practical definition can be (and often are) different things. And even within each field, there is a tremendous variation in the level of education and licensure needed.

As was pointed out, getting a PE registration matters a lot more to some disciplines than others. For me, there are very few Civil Engineers I work with who don't pursue PE registration - for most of us, its required for our jobs, and at a minimum is one of our career stepping stones. But for my friends who are mechanical, electrical, and chemical engineers, not one of them has their PE license - mainly as it isn't a requirement for the work they do. For some in those fields, it is, but for their fields, it isn't.

 

[postjeeprcr]

I find this thread quite interesting being I work at an engineering firm but am not an engineer.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
This is my opinion. About 20% of degreed engineers (or less) really ever fulfill the true spirit and definition of engineering. Engineers are supposed to build and invent stuff. Very few do. Lots get into sales, many get into management both being a terrible waste. O&M really isn't engineering and teaching which I've done a fair share of, is not engineering.


turtlevette, one of the problems these days (well the last 15 years at least) is that they started in Oz using high school finishing grades to control access to University degrees...some stupid sort of controlled market.

Everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer, so only the top 3% in high school marks are allowed to apply...next 5% can apply to Engineering, and then teaching can get all the way down to the top 55%.

Not a system that selects by aptitude.



That sounds like something we base movies on here. Some sort of a weird "engineered" society. Which is a shame. Many of the most significant contributor's and geniuses do NOT do well in school. Einstein was a terrible student. Edison didnt bother to go to school.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Thanks for the in depth explanations.

I met a director of Engineering Dept (facility manager - carpentry, plumbing, electrician, handy man, painters, etc...) at a hospital. He said he was an 'engineer' so I asked what was his background because of a major remodel of a hospital wing. He said he had a bachelors / masters degree in business and worked in the construction industry for 20 years.

We were in a meeting with hospital COO and CFO about installation of medical equipment and the requirements needed for each room (HVAC, oxygen, air, vacuum, electrical). The facility manager kept calling himself an engineer and he knew exactly how to proceed with architects on this $5 million project.

I didn't want to be rude and call him out in front of everyone.... but I didn't like the fact his 20 years working for a construction company made him an 'engineer'. We find out this project had overlooked important items: no sinks/water in each patient room to wash hands, not enough electrical outlets, etc...

Project is months behind schedule and city had already approved the plans. COO, CFO and CNO can't decide on the color of the floor tiles, lost revenue due to the delays. Finger pointing and corporate asking why things weren't addressed months earlier. This so-called engineer is in the hot seat trying to explain the problems.

Interesting story. Sounds like he didn't even understand the electrical and plumbing codes. MEP's usually do this work and it needs to be stamped. Hospital electrical systems also require isolated grounds for instruments connected to patients, spec'd outlets, all sorts of details not required in a commercial building.

No sinks or water in the patients room??? Did they have toilets? Showers? Or were those left out as well? Not enough outlets??? He's clearly incompetent if all true. Competent plumbers and commercial electricians understand this.

Someone really screwed the pooch on your job.

BTW, I have a B.Sc.E.E. from a major university and have never needed a P.E. I don't sign plans.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Thanks for the in depth explanations.

I met a director of Engineering Dept (facility manager - carpentry, plumbing, electrician, handy man, painters, etc...) at a hospital. He said he was an 'engineer' so I asked what was his background because of a major remodel of a hospital wing. He said he had a bachelors / masters degree in business and worked in the construction industry for 20 years.
...
We find out this project had overlooked important items: no sinks/water in each patient room to wash hands, not enough electrical outlets, etc...

Project is months behind schedule and city had already approved the plans. COO, CFO and CNO can't decide on the color of the floor tiles, lost revenue due to the delays. Finger pointing and corporate asking why things weren't addressed months earlier. This so-called engineer is in the hot seat trying to explain the problems.

I've also seen many poorly-run projects for multiple reasons. It sounds like a process issue in this case. There would be specs for such a facility and every requirement should have been checked off so that the result is not dependant upon the skills or memory of one person. I also wonder why COO, CFO are choosing colors - a red flag right there showing a lack of understanding of who should be responsible for what.

 

[Mr Nice]

Yep. Its a mess. Until remodel and floors are completed our equipment is still in boxes on pallets. Classic 'too many chefs in the kitchen' trying to decide what needs to get done.

The so-called engineer also forgot about the network drops and cabling for the computers and medical equipment (ICU patient monitoring-central nurse station). I only gave the necessary info for our requirements. More money needs to be spent to fix the original mistakes.

No sinks or running water for nurses / doctors to wash their hands ?????
Oops.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
No sinks or running water for nurses / doctors to wash their hands ?????
Oops.

In Australia, they (the doctors) have forgotten that anyway.

When we had our children, Id constantly have to remind them to wash their hands before touching my wife/kids.

 

[howie2092]

I have a BSME (Colorado School of Mines), and an EIT (engineer-in-training) from the state of Colorado. A PE certification in my line of work was no real advantage so I never pursued that. I was too poor and unmotivated to get an advanced degree, and saw little advantage in as MSME unless I chose a narrow specialty like thermodynamics, stress analysis, vibration, etc.

Since, I have worked continuously as an ME for 23 years, at increasing levels of responsibility. I'm an ME4 at my company now, just below 'guru' and 'project manager' (Anyone can be a project manager, and that's not my cup of tea). I'm probably in the minority of ME's that actually do mechanical engineering day-in, day-out.

I have designed stuff for aerospace, medical devices, factory automation, and consumer products. Most notably, I worked on a turbopump for the SpaceX rockets. I have a couple of patents from way back in the day as well.

In my humble opinion, a 4-year degree from an accredited university and a few years of mentorship under a seasoned engineer is required to call oneself an 'engineer'.

Ask me anything.

 

[Andrew1972]

An engineer or not would make no difference in the outcome of this project. Its about project management the fail occurred not engineering...

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
No sinks or running water for nurses / doctors to wash their hands ?????
Oops.

In Australia, they (the doctors) have forgotten that anyway.

When we had our children, Id constantly have to remind them to wash their hands before touching my wife/kids.


Ewww... Really?

I've always considered Australia to be first world. (ie they know the importance to cleanliness.)

 

[EchoTech1945]

I wanted to be an engineer but I passed the IQ test.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: EchoTech1945
I wanted to be an engineer but I passed the IQ test.


Post number 1. Cool.