What is going on with my engine internals at 300°f on the track?

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silverz06vette

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01 Z06 with 67k miles. 25 trackdays.

My UOAs in the past have been pretty good:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002372

I just drained some M1 0w-40 after 5200 miles and 2 trackdays with peak temps over 300°f this time. One session I even saw 307°f before I did a few cooldown laps. I will send the oil in to Butler in a few days.

How are my bearing surfaces holding up if my UOA comes back fine? Am I "cooking" parts of my motor and reducing its life? Would a teardown be the only way to know?

thanks!
 
I think it's just given that running an engine hard will reduce its potential lifespan, but the M1 is probably giving you some good protection.
 
I would first and foremost be worried about coking of the oil (not cooking
smile.gif
) in passageways, as if the bulk is as high as 307, the actual stress surfaces are signifcantly hotter.

With coking comes particles, with particles come wear.

IMO, if you dont have abnormal wear, than the oil is either (a) not coking up and contributing to abnormal wear or (b) coking up on a surface but remaining there (similar to the mechanism that occurs with coking in turbo bearings), reducing the effective passage size.

If its (a), youll know. If its (b), it may spring up at you one day with odd noise or bad wear results. But what can you do? Decreased longevity is part of the deal when you track a car, and youre doing the best you can for it by running an ACEA A3 oil.

Do you have some sort of an oil cooler? You might want to beef it up a bit.

JMH
 
307°F oil temp is daran hot for a production car. I suspect that all of your wear metals are going to be really eleavated. I am thinking that iron,copper and lead will be out of sight for the milage on the oil! How long was 307°F sustained becasue the amount of time spent at that peak temp. will have a lot to do with it. I suspect that M1 0W40 would be the worst choice for those types of oil temp's!!! I can not waite to see the UOA. I am hopeing to see the best but I am prepareing for the worst!!!!

Not trying to scar you I just do not want you to expect it to look anything like your 7700 UOA! I am sure the PPM's will be well below what GM considers bad since their limit is 150PPM for wear metals!
 
JMH, So I guess that a UOA would not show what you describe?

I've given thought to an oil cooler. A stand alone is $600 unless I put everything together myself and a intergrated HD radiator oil cooler is over $1100. Do I really need it is what I'm try to figure out?

When the oil temp hit 307° at sebring I was coming to the back straight, with no one behind me I coasted down the back straight, put her in neutral and my oil pressure was 29psi. Usually its 34 psi at idle with normal oil temp of 200-210°
 
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
307°F oil temp is daran hot for a production car. I suspect that all of your wear metals are going to be really eleavated. I am thinking that iron,copper and lead will be out of sight for the milage on the oil! How long was 307°F sustained becasue the amount of time spent at that peak temp. will have a lot to do with it. I suspect that M1 0W40 would be the worst choice for those types of oil temp's!!! I can not waite to see the UOA. I am hopeing to see the best but I am prepareing for the worst!!!!
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I would say less then a min at 307°, when you are putting distance on a viper, sometimes you push it too far when not paying attention.
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Each of the 7 sessions in 2 days was over 300 peak, then I would do a cool down lap or two, get it back to 270° or so and let it rip again.

The M1 5w30 I have used has held up well to peaks of 290° as you can see by my UOAs. I have another event in July at VIR. If the 0w-40 shows over 300° again, the M1 10w30 will go in at the track.

Then again I'm going out right now to fill her up with 0w-40, if the UOA comes back bad its coming out before the track event.
 
Did your origial UOA include track days? If so, how many, it was not clear to me from your post. If they did include track days, your wear numbers are excellent; no lead, no nickel, no tin. I track a 94 LT1 and experiance 300+ temps as well. Although you are comparing an LS6 with an LT1, do a search under my name(I don't know how to paste my UOA) my Pb, Fe and Ni were very off the chart. I did add Valvoline Synpower additive for increased Moly and lowered wear numbers on my second UOA. Also, be sure to cut open your oil filter and examine it. This will give you a big clue on excessive wear. A thinner oil should in theory reduce internal friction and lower oil temps.
 
quote:
Originally posted by sidney004:
Did your origial UOA include track days? If so, how many, it was not clear to me from your post. If they did include track days, your wear numbers are excellent; no lead, no nickel, no tin. I track a 94 LT1 and experiance 300+ temps as well. Although you are comparing an LS6 with an LT1, do a search under my name(I don't know how to paste my UOA) my Pb, Fe and Ni were very off the chart. I did add Valvoline Synpower additive for increased Moly and lowered wear numbers on my second UOA. Also, be sure to cut open your oil filter and examine it. This will give you a big clue on excessive wear. A thinner oil should in theory reduce internal friction and lower oil temps.
Click to expand...
Yes they did, the UOA with 4400 miles had 3 trackdays and the one with 7700 miles had 2 trackdays. Peak oil temps where in the low 290°s range.
 
I always run that extra quart of oil in my C5 even though I don't run it on the road course. I figure why not just run it all the time for my daily driving? I know it's safe, as the LS1 engine has lots of room for extra oil before the crank even comes close to hitting the oil.
 
$600 for an oil cooler? We sell Canton and Mocal 25-row oil radiators (more thermally efficient than most normal coolers) for less than $300 for the large ones, also combination cooler/radiator from PWR for even less than that. Even if you went with custom lines/fittings, Canton oil filter sandwich, and cooler mount it still should be well under $600, and the labor is not a whole lot more than an oil change with some extra bits to install and lines to route.

Give me a call at Dave Turner Motorsports 858-571-3811 or go to www.DaveTurnerMotorsport.com (no ess at the end). Sorry to turn this into a commercial post, but if the only reason you're coking the oil and not running a cooler is because you've been misquoted on the parts is wrong!

-JamesW
 
quote:
Originally posted by Solo2driver:
$600 for an oil cooler? We sell Canton and Mocal 25-row oil radiators (more thermally efficient than most normal coolers) for less than $300 for the large ones, also combination cooler/radiator from PWR for even less than that. Even if you went with custom lines/fittings, Canton oil filter sandwich, and cooler mount it still should be well under $600, and the labor is not a whole lot more than an oil change with some extra bits to install and lines to route.

Give me a call at Dave Turner Motorsports 858-571-3811 or go to www.DaveTurnerMotorsport.com (no ess at the end). Sorry to turn this into a commercial post, but if the only reason you're coking the oil and not running a cooler is because you've been misquoted on the parts is wrong!

-JamesW
Click to expand...
Sent you a PM.
 
Will a larger oil filter fit without scraping a speed bump? PF59 vs PF44

Is there room for a remote oil filter somewhere? I'm thinking a PF932 remotely mounted with some Permacool adapters.

Permacool oil cooler kits can also be used to make your own filter mounted oil cooler that costs less then $600.

Are there 'insulating' plastic engine covers that can be discarded? Better heat loss leads to better oil/coolant temps.

Will an oil filter cool collar fit?

An upgraded radiator can help keep water temps down which will lead to cooler oil temps especially if a cooler thermostat is used.
 
I run a 04 LS1 GEN III....heads/cam/ the works....if you think the viscosity of your oil is gonna save your butt...your wrong!Pay to play man:)
Perma cool oil cooler and dual filters....Amsoil 0-30.....172MPH top end...and 11's in the 1/4...either way never see above 220f....with the oil cooler and dual filters I run 7 1/2 quarts of the Amsoil 0-30......
 
quote:
Originally posted by sgtgeek:
I run a 04 LS1 GEN III....heads/cam/ the works....if you think the viscosity of your oil is gonna save your butt...your wrong!Pay to play man:)
Perma cool oil cooler and dual filters....Amsoil 0-30.....172MPH top end...and 11's in the 1/4...either way never see above 220f....with the oil cooler and dual filters I run 7 1/2 quarts of the Amsoil 0-30......
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Thats because you are not running your car on a ROAD COURSE. An 11 second WOT run is not going to put any stress on your motor. Even guys with oil coolers get about 265° on road courses. IMO I think your oil temps would be the same without an oil cooler.
 
quote:
Originally posted by unDummy:
Will a larger oil filter fit without scraping a speed bump? PF59 vs PF44

Is there room for a remote oil filter somewhere? I'm thinking a PF932 remotely mounted with some Permacool adapters.

Permacool oil cooler kits can also be used to make your own filter mounted oil cooler that costs less then $600.

Are there 'insulating' plastic engine covers that can be discarded? Better heat loss leads to better oil/coolant temps.

Will an oil filter cool collar fit?

An upgraded radiator can help keep water temps down which will lead to cooler oil temps especially if a cooler thermostat is used.
Click to expand...
Right now my aftermarket cats are the lowest point on the car. Sorry but no way in **** would I hang an oil filter any lower then the stock one is. I use Baldwin filters as they flow a little better then the M1 or UPF44 filters. I prefer to have the flow on a roadcourse.

I always remove the engine covers for track use, but thanks!

Wonder if the oil filter cool collar really does work?
 
You don't mention this, but the Z06 2001 video (done by the various Corvette engineering heads) says to put an extra quart of oil during track days.

(6.5 quart capacity + 1 quart= 7.5 qt.)

The extra quart will definitely help with heat dissipation, BUT the primary reason for the extra quart is because you spend a lot more time sideways (side to side G forces) which creates the POTENTIAL for oil starvation.
 
quote:
Originally posted by ruking77:
You don't mention this, but the Z06 2001 video (done by the various Corvette engineering heads) says to put an extra quart of oil during track days.

(6.5 quart capacity + 1 quart= 7.5 qt.)

The extra quart will definitely help with heat dissipation, BUT the primary reason for the extra quart is because you spend a lot more time sideways (side to side G forces) which creates the POTENTIAL for oil starvation.
Click to expand...
When I drain my oil, I always jack the rear of the car higher then the front. Its a flat oil pan with the plug on the front of the pan, so if you are level you are not getting all of the old oil out. about 1/2 qt from what I see.

So when I drain it like this it takes 7 qts to get it back to the full line on the dipstick. I always check the level in the moring when the car is cold and level.

So when I add the extra quart for the track I have 8 qts in there.
 
quote:
Thats because you are not running your car on a ROAD COURSE. An 11 second WOT run is not going to put any stress on your motor. Even guys with oil coolers get about 265° on road courses. IMO I think your oil temps would be the same without an oil cooler. [/QB]
Click to expand...
Wasnt very clear was I:)
The top end was in ref to closed road courses we have run it on.....yes we do run it both 1/4 mile and closed road courses/flying miles etc. (no drifting:)).....it also is street legal and sits in traffic going thumpa thumpa thumpa:) My point is I beleive you would reap major benefits from the simple/cheap/effective oil cooler for your LS1 versus stressing oils at 300+f....just IMHO...
 
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