Quality is how closely the product meets the specifications to which it was designed.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Nothing more, nothing less.
What does quality mean to YOU?
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Originally Posted By: brianl703
Quality is how closely the product meets the specifications to which it was designed.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Read this...
Quote:
Quality is like pornography... hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
...and you will realise that it's not as simple as you state it is.
Quality is how closely the product meets the specifications to which it was designed.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Read this...
Quote:
Quality is like pornography... hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
...and you will realise that it's not as simple as you state it is.
Oh, lighten up, just trying to stir the pot a bit, you're taking this "quality" thing as seriously as Toyota, La Hood will burn your feet
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Originally Posted By: brianl703
Quality is how closely the product meets the specifications to which it was designed.
Nothing more, nothing less.
In engineering and manufacturing that is the correct definition. Using that definition in the rest of the world only causes confusion because in the rest of the world "quality" is usully a measure of goodness.
Quality is how closely the product meets the specifications to which it was designed.
Nothing more, nothing less.
In engineering and manufacturing that is the correct definition. Using that definition in the rest of the world only causes confusion because in the rest of the world "quality" is usully a measure of goodness.
Kestas
Staff member
I've seen many a lousy product that was made to specification.
I'm still serious that quality is a nebulous term.
I'm still serious that quality is a nebulous term.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I've seen many a lousy product that was made to specification.
I'm still serious that quality is a nebulous term.
I'm with you "quality" is one of those things with a moving definition, dependent on the person you are asking.
Take a poll of what quality means to you at a local WalMart and you'll likely get different answers vs asking the same question down at Saks Fifth Avenue.
For me quality, is a combination of reliability, economics and owner satisfaction. Understanding that "satisfaction" is another nebulous variable that encompasses many different aspects of car ownership.
I've seen many a lousy product that was made to specification.
I'm still serious that quality is a nebulous term.
I'm with you "quality" is one of those things with a moving definition, dependent on the person you are asking.
Take a poll of what quality means to you at a local WalMart and you'll likely get different answers vs asking the same question down at Saks Fifth Avenue.
For me quality, is a combination of reliability, economics and owner satisfaction. Understanding that "satisfaction" is another nebulous variable that encompasses many different aspects of car ownership.
Originally Posted By: XS650
In engineering and manufacturing that is the correct definition. Using that definition in the rest of the world only causes confusion because in the rest of the world "quality" is usully a measure of goodness.
Which is why companies proudly state that they're ISO:9001 certified.
We both know what that means: If they're gonna make a [censored] product, it has to be consistently [censored].
I don't think the rest of the world knows what that means. The average person probably sees IS0:9001 and figures that it means the product isn't [censored].
In engineering and manufacturing that is the correct definition. Using that definition in the rest of the world only causes confusion because in the rest of the world "quality" is usully a measure of goodness.
Which is why companies proudly state that they're ISO:9001 certified.
We both know what that means: If they're gonna make a [censored] product, it has to be consistently [censored].
I don't think the rest of the world knows what that means. The average person probably sees IS0:9001 and figures that it means the product isn't [censored].
When you neither have to open the hood, or see a cel.
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
01rangerxl's list raises a good question: What's makes one polymer (plastic) more quality than another?
I always thought rattles from interior panels was due to fit and finish.
This is kind of subjective, but I don't like really hard plastics with rough texture. I also think visible lines from the mold look bad. Broken door panels, door handles, speaker grilles, etc. look like [censored]. That's cheap plastic IMO.
01rangerxl's list raises a good question: What's makes one polymer (plastic) more quality than another?
I always thought rattles from interior panels was due to fit and finish.
This is kind of subjective, but I don't like really hard plastics with rough texture. I also think visible lines from the mold look bad. Broken door panels, door handles, speaker grilles, etc. look like [censored]. That's cheap plastic IMO.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Quality is like pornography... hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
I thought that the terms "Sex" "Porn" "Pornography" ... are forbidden and censored
.
Quality is like pornography... hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
I thought that the terms "Sex" "Porn" "Pornography" ... are forbidden and censored
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: XS650
In engineering and manufacturing that is the correct definition. Using that definition in the rest of the world only causes confusion because in the rest of the world "quality" is usully a measure of goodness.
Which is why companies proudly state that they're ISO:9001 certified.
We both know what that means: If they're gonna make a [censored] product, it has to be consistently [censored].
I don't think the rest of the world knows what that means. The average person probably sees IS0:9001 and figures that it means the product isn't [censored].
When I retired 13 years ago we were just starting down the ISO:9001 trail. On the engineering side of the house, our systems engineering group was in charge of the effort and I thought they were doing a good job of embracing the idea behind 9001 while using it to actually improve some processes. It was going to be a long difficult job to get it in place without messing the development process up. I'm glad I didn't have to carry out the changes before I retired.
It's not such a bad process but it is frequently (usually?) poorly implemented.
You typically hire a consulting company to guide you through the process of becoming 9001 qualified. Our division was taking it seriously and trying to make it work for us, a sister division was taking the approach of going through the motions to get their ticket punched. A our sister division's approach seems to be the more common one.
Originally Posted By: XS650
In engineering and manufacturing that is the correct definition. Using that definition in the rest of the world only causes confusion because in the rest of the world "quality" is usully a measure of goodness.
Which is why companies proudly state that they're ISO:9001 certified.
We both know what that means: If they're gonna make a [censored] product, it has to be consistently [censored].
I don't think the rest of the world knows what that means. The average person probably sees IS0:9001 and figures that it means the product isn't [censored].
When I retired 13 years ago we were just starting down the ISO:9001 trail. On the engineering side of the house, our systems engineering group was in charge of the effort and I thought they were doing a good job of embracing the idea behind 9001 while using it to actually improve some processes. It was going to be a long difficult job to get it in place without messing the development process up. I'm glad I didn't have to carry out the changes before I retired.
It's not such a bad process but it is frequently (usually?) poorly implemented.
You typically hire a consulting company to guide you through the process of becoming 9001 qualified. Our division was taking it seriously and trying to make it work for us, a sister division was taking the approach of going through the motions to get their ticket punched. A our sister division's approach seems to be the more common one.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Quality is like pornography... hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
I thought that the terms "Sex" "Porn" "Pornography" ... are forbidden and censored
.
If they were, how could we tell you what isn't allowed?
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Quality is like pornography... hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
I thought that the terms "Sex" "Porn" "Pornography" ... are forbidden and censored
If they were, how could we tell you what isn't allowed?
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
01rangerxl's list raises a good question: What's makes one polymer (plastic) more quality than another?
I always thought rattles from interior panels was due to fit and finish.
This is kind of subjective, but I don't like really hard plastics with rough texture. I also think visible lines from the mold look bad. Broken door panels, door handles, speaker grilles, etc. look like [censored]. That's cheap plastic IMO.
Quality is a plastic, that is well preserved so it doesn't get all brittle. Then you stand a chance of unplugging an electrical connector under the hood 12 years later and not having it crumble to pieces. One can't spot that in new materials but has to have faith that they made it properly.
This is something the chemists solved a while ago, but the bean counters can interfere in favor of something cheaper.
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
01rangerxl's list raises a good question: What's makes one polymer (plastic) more quality than another?
I always thought rattles from interior panels was due to fit and finish.
This is kind of subjective, but I don't like really hard plastics with rough texture. I also think visible lines from the mold look bad. Broken door panels, door handles, speaker grilles, etc. look like [censored]. That's cheap plastic IMO.
Quality is a plastic, that is well preserved so it doesn't get all brittle. Then you stand a chance of unplugging an electrical connector under the hood 12 years later and not having it crumble to pieces. One can't spot that in new materials but has to have faith that they made it properly.
This is something the chemists solved a while ago, but the bean counters can interfere in favor of something cheaper.
Yes we went thru all that ISO 9000 [censored] which did not imporve quality 1 bit.
All 9000 means you document your process for everything. The joke was you could make concrete life preservers and document how you made them and everything else and get the 9000 banner. The shysters pushing 9000 were the outside consultants who stood to make money. Unfortuantly no one cares about ISO 9000 anymore and alot of the ISO 9000 busniness in manufacturing went under and was out soucred to mexico or China. We had product which was ISO 9000 approved and moved it to Mexico where the facility was not and people still bough the product, bottom line was price.
We tied up a lot of resources for 2 years to get the ISO 9000 banner and then were closed 2 years later, the products going to Mexico, Canada and Chec Republic, none of our customers cared about lack of ISO 9000 certs. They did later when the quality went down but that is another story.
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: XS650
In engineering and manufacturing that is the correct definition. Using that definition in the rest of the world only causes confusion because in the rest of the world "quality" is usully a measure of goodness.
Which is why companies proudly state that they're ISO:9001 certified.
We both know what that means: If they're gonna make a [censored] product, it has to be consistently [censored].
I don't think the rest of the world knows what that means. The average person probably sees IS0:9001 and figures that it means the product isn't [censored].
When I retired 13 years ago we were just starting down the ISO:9001 trail. On the engineering side of the house, our systems engineering group was in charge of the effort and I thought they were doing a good job of embracing the idea behind 9001 while using it to actually improve some processes. It was going to be a long difficult job to get it in place without messing the development process up. I'm glad I didn't have to carry out the changes before I retired.
It's not such a bad process but it is frequently (usually?) poorly implemented.
You typically hire a consulting company to guide you through the process of becoming 9001 qualified. Our division was taking it seriously and trying to make it work for us, a sister division was taking the approach of going through the motions to get their ticket punched. A our sister division's approach seems to be the more common one.
All 9000 means you document your process for everything. The joke was you could make concrete life preservers and document how you made them and everything else and get the 9000 banner. The shysters pushing 9000 were the outside consultants who stood to make money. Unfortuantly no one cares about ISO 9000 anymore and alot of the ISO 9000 busniness in manufacturing went under and was out soucred to mexico or China. We had product which was ISO 9000 approved and moved it to Mexico where the facility was not and people still bough the product, bottom line was price.
We tied up a lot of resources for 2 years to get the ISO 9000 banner and then were closed 2 years later, the products going to Mexico, Canada and Chec Republic, none of our customers cared about lack of ISO 9000 certs. They did later when the quality went down but that is another story.
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: XS650
In engineering and manufacturing that is the correct definition. Using that definition in the rest of the world only causes confusion because in the rest of the world "quality" is usully a measure of goodness.
Which is why companies proudly state that they're ISO:9001 certified.
We both know what that means: If they're gonna make a [censored] product, it has to be consistently [censored].
I don't think the rest of the world knows what that means. The average person probably sees IS0:9001 and figures that it means the product isn't [censored].
When I retired 13 years ago we were just starting down the ISO:9001 trail. On the engineering side of the house, our systems engineering group was in charge of the effort and I thought they were doing a good job of embracing the idea behind 9001 while using it to actually improve some processes. It was going to be a long difficult job to get it in place without messing the development process up. I'm glad I didn't have to carry out the changes before I retired.
It's not such a bad process but it is frequently (usually?) poorly implemented.
You typically hire a consulting company to guide you through the process of becoming 9001 qualified. Our division was taking it seriously and trying to make it work for us, a sister division was taking the approach of going through the motions to get their ticket punched. A our sister division's approach seems to be the more common one.
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Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
They might as well have a "NO USER SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE" tag on the hood release.
Mercedes Benz doesn't even let you check your own transmission fluid level. There is just a cap that says "MB WORKSHOP ONLY" on the transmission dipstick tube.
" Oh nein, you are too ztupid to check ze fluid. "
Then there's the indecipherable pictograms on the controls. What does this one mean? Is that a Weber grill and a lightning bolt? Well I definitely don't want to push that button!
So they move everything to a screen in the center of the dash and give you a mouse-like control. Good idea except they think very little about navigating their interface and user friendliness. It's not very intuitive and generally a pain in the neck to use. ( neck is not the exact word I wanted to use but it will suffice instead of a [censored] .)
Then if you do decide to dive in you will find that they used 3 or 4 different sizes and styles of fasteners on one assembly. Completely unnecessary. For a nation that prides itself on efficiency in manufacturing it's a remarkably inefficient practice.
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
They might as well have a "NO USER SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE" tag on the hood release.
Mercedes Benz doesn't even let you check your own transmission fluid level. There is just a cap that says "MB WORKSHOP ONLY" on the transmission dipstick tube.
" Oh nein, you are too ztupid to check ze fluid. "
Then there's the indecipherable pictograms on the controls. What does this one mean? Is that a Weber grill and a lightning bolt? Well I definitely don't want to push that button!
So they move everything to a screen in the center of the dash and give you a mouse-like control. Good idea except they think very little about navigating their interface and user friendliness. It's not very intuitive and generally a pain in the neck to use. ( neck is not the exact word I wanted to use but it will suffice instead of a [censored] .)
Then if you do decide to dive in you will find that they used 3 or 4 different sizes and styles of fasteners on one assembly. Completely unnecessary. For a nation that prides itself on efficiency in manufacturing it's a remarkably inefficient practice.
Spaz
I would say it rules out many imports with crowded engine bays, hence I hate Toyota and Honda for that reason.
Per the Mercedes, my neighbor has athe new SUV, has the battery under the cowl. have to remove the wipers and cowl and the battery is kidney shaped. I cant imagine what it will cost to replace since he will be stuck buying it from mercedes and get charged to install it. But he proudly says he has a 3 yr 50K bumper to bumper warranty. LOL
I would say it rules out many imports with crowded engine bays, hence I hate Toyota and Honda for that reason.
Per the Mercedes, my neighbor has athe new SUV, has the battery under the cowl. have to remove the wipers and cowl and the battery is kidney shaped. I cant imagine what it will cost to replace since he will be stuck buying it from mercedes and get charged to install it. But he proudly says he has a 3 yr 50K bumper to bumper warranty. LOL
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
I beg to differ. I replaced my car's clutch with the car on jack stands on a garage floor. There are numerous newer BMWs among my other friends and almost all of them similarly easy to work on.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Mercedes Benz doesn't even let you check your own transmission fluid level. There is just a cap that says "MB WORKSHOP ONLY" on the transmission dipstick tube.
" Oh nein, you are too ztupid to check ze fluid. "
Then there's the indecipherable pictograms on the controls. What does this one mean? Is that a Weber grill and a lightning bolt? Well I definitely don't want to push that button!
So they move everything to a screen in the center of the dash and give you a mouse-like control. Good idea except they think very little about navigating their interface and user friendliness. It's not very intuitive and generally a pain in the neck to use. ( neck is not the exact word I wanted to use but it will suffice instead of a [censored] .)
BMW does the same thing now, and most other companies are starting to follow.
I think it's safe to say you do not represent most of their customers. However counterintuitive you find the computer, it's infinitely more intuitive than a dipstick to the kind of person who doesn't even know what transmission fluid is.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Then if you do decide to dive in you will find that they used 3 or 4 different sizes and styles of fasteners on one assembly. Completely unnecessary. For a nation that prides itself on efficiency in manufacturing it's a remarkably inefficient practice.
Different parts of an assembly may be subject to different forces or have different amounts of room in which to place the fasteners. Sounds like you would rather have them design the housings to use the same fasteners all around, rather than designing them to work well and choosing the fasteners afterward. That's fine, but it's not "efficient."
My transmission's bellhousing is like that. IIRC there are three different bolt sizes. It just means I have to change sockets twice while removing the bolts. In the context of a clutch job, that's not really a big deal.
By contrast, oil changes are easier and cleaner on my car than on my brother's eminently practical Honda.
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
I beg to differ. I replaced my car's clutch with the car on jack stands on a garage floor. There are numerous newer BMWs among my other friends and almost all of them similarly easy to work on.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Mercedes Benz doesn't even let you check your own transmission fluid level. There is just a cap that says "MB WORKSHOP ONLY" on the transmission dipstick tube.
" Oh nein, you are too ztupid to check ze fluid. "
Then there's the indecipherable pictograms on the controls. What does this one mean? Is that a Weber grill and a lightning bolt? Well I definitely don't want to push that button!
So they move everything to a screen in the center of the dash and give you a mouse-like control. Good idea except they think very little about navigating their interface and user friendliness. It's not very intuitive and generally a pain in the neck to use. ( neck is not the exact word I wanted to use but it will suffice instead of a [censored] .)
BMW does the same thing now, and most other companies are starting to follow.
I think it's safe to say you do not represent most of their customers. However counterintuitive you find the computer, it's infinitely more intuitive than a dipstick to the kind of person who doesn't even know what transmission fluid is.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Then if you do decide to dive in you will find that they used 3 or 4 different sizes and styles of fasteners on one assembly. Completely unnecessary. For a nation that prides itself on efficiency in manufacturing it's a remarkably inefficient practice.
Different parts of an assembly may be subject to different forces or have different amounts of room in which to place the fasteners. Sounds like you would rather have them design the housings to use the same fasteners all around, rather than designing them to work well and choosing the fasteners afterward. That's fine, but it's not "efficient."
My transmission's bellhousing is like that. IIRC there are three different bolt sizes. It just means I have to change sockets twice while removing the bolts. In the context of a clutch job, that's not really a big deal.
By contrast, oil changes are easier and cleaner on my car than on my brother's eminently practical Honda.
Besides, a lot of this stems from customer expectations and ignorance.
If we as a general public didn't demand useless junk, we wouldn't need kidney-shaped batteries and ridiculously complicated electronics.
If we actually bothered to educate ourselves about automotive maintenance, we wouldn't need lifetime transmission fluids or computers to check our oil for us.
If we didn't demand huge, heavy cars, we wouldn't need engines and suspensions that are so sophisticated that the manufacturer won't trust anyone but their own dealerships to maintain them.
And if we as BITOGers buy cars that are designed for people who fail in all of the above, we shouldn't be surprised that they make life difficult for us.
Blame the customers before the manufacturers, IMO.
If we as a general public didn't demand useless junk, we wouldn't need kidney-shaped batteries and ridiculously complicated electronics.
If we actually bothered to educate ourselves about automotive maintenance, we wouldn't need lifetime transmission fluids or computers to check our oil for us.
If we didn't demand huge, heavy cars, we wouldn't need engines and suspensions that are so sophisticated that the manufacturer won't trust anyone but their own dealerships to maintain them.
And if we as BITOGers buy cars that are designed for people who fail in all of the above, we shouldn't be surprised that they make life difficult for us.
Blame the customers before the manufacturers, IMO.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
By contrast, oil changes are easier and cleaner on my car than on my brother's eminently practical Honda.
Is the filter on that Honda conveniently located on the backside of the engine just above the half-shaft?
The only car I have ever had to raise off the ground to complete an oil change is a Honda.
By contrast, oil changes are easier and cleaner on my car than on my brother's eminently practical Honda.
Is the filter on that Honda conveniently located on the backside of the engine just above the half-shaft?
The only car I have ever had to raise off the ground to complete an oil change is a Honda.
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