Warranty work

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15,129
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N.H, U.S.A.
Originally Posted by PowerSurge
Dealers are paid less for warranty work.
Yes less than the insane double overcharge they normally bill. NO One makes that kind of money - not even plumbers who do they think they are? MD's with PhD's?
 
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5,124
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Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted by t1snwrbrdr12
You guys ever take a car under warranty to a dealer multiple times and continue to get no problem found...can you take it to another dealer? Will they still provide a loaner? It's a Mazda. Mazda's site states they provide Mazda loaners for service or warranty work. But my question is with a history of "no problem found" are they going to refuse providing a loaner? I have two front end noises that I would like to think are from the same thing but sound completely different. I also have a forward camera that doesn't work in the hot...a TSB applies to this but they refused to repair it due to me not bringing it in with an active fault code. I've worked in a dealer 2003-2013 and we never have our customers as much trouble as they've been giving me. I even worked for this family of dealers. They're just really frustrating me and I'm almost out of warranty. They're telling me now they've wasted too much time and covid has them down to a skeleton crew and blah blah, but keep saying they just won't look at it anymore. I get the "Mazda is a great car, we are a boutique brand that doesn't have the money to throw parts at your car" etc.
First question: Yes you can. Second question: Depends. As I understand it dealers can prioritize loaners for their customers if you arrive via an unscheduled appointment. Keep in mind that although you're close to running out on warranty, there's a record of an unresolved issue. Basically the inability of the dealership to diagnosis your issue doesn't impact whether or not warranty would apply if the problem was brought up while under the factory warranty period.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Keep in mind that although you're close to running out on warranty, there's a record of an unresolved issue. Basically the inability of the dealership to diagnosis your issue doesn't impact whether or not warranty would apply if the problem was brought up while under the factory warranty period.
That's not correct ( based on the OP claim) There's a "record" of a "good and proper investigation with no finding of a failure". That's a totally different animal. I concur that the inability to diagnose is an issue to be addressed but don't think it wont matter in any arbitration because both sides will be given equal consideration and ultimately the "burden" of establishing there is an actual issue will be on the OP, not the dealer. Those who believe the customer is always right have never been in arbitration or court. It is in the best interest ( given the OP's stated history and attempts) to get a 3rd party diagnosis at this point. ( which is not to say not pursuing the dealer option in parallel) Obviously this alleged problem ( yes alleged) is either a problem in infancy and difficult to detect, something non standard or something only occurring under a certain set of conditions. Degree of difficulty aside, it cannot be addressed until discovered and evaluated and that onus is on the OP at his point. If the dealer has done all they know to do ( giving them the benefit of the doubt) then doing more of the same is unlikely to change anything- time for other options. No arbiter is going to back date anything like this unless there is something significant and it can be shown the dealer was negligent or otherwise violated duty of care under the terms of the warranty contract and according to the OP this has not happened.
 
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Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by PowerSurge
Dealers are paid less for warranty work.
It depends on the manufacturer.
It is called "warranty time," the labor reimbursement is generally 30-40% lower. BMW is no exception.
That's what I've been told also.
 
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5,124
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Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Keep in mind that although you're close to running out on warranty, there's a record of an unresolved issue. Basically the inability of the dealership to diagnosis your issue doesn't impact whether or not warranty would apply if the problem was brought up while under the factory warranty period.
That's not correct ( based on the OP claim) There's a "record" of a "good and proper investigation with no finding of a failure". That's a totally different animal. I concur that the inability to diagnose is an issue to be addressed but don't think it wont matter in any arbitration because both sides will be given equal consideration and ultimately the "burden" of establishing there is an actual issue will be on the OP, not the dealer. Those who believe the customer is always right have never been in arbitration or court. It is in the best interest ( given the OP's stated history and attempts) to get a 3rd party diagnosis at this point. ( which is not to say not pursuing the dealer option in parallel) Obviously this alleged problem ( yes alleged) is either a problem in infancy and difficult to detect, something non standard or something only occurring under a certain set of conditions. Degree of difficulty aside, it cannot be addressed until discovered and evaluated and that onus is on the OP at his point. If the dealer has done all they know to do ( giving them the benefit of the doubt) then doing more of the same is unlikely to change anything- time for other options. No arbiter is going to back date anything like this unless there is something significant and it can be shown the dealer was negligent or otherwise violated duty of care under the terms of the warranty contract and according to the OP this has not happened.
"Good and proper" is subjective. Since we don't know the issue we don't know what an arbiter would/would not do. Anecdotal example: Rear differential was going out on my mothers Jeep and dealer said everything was fine. Warranty expired less than 5k miles later and she brought it in again. Dealer diagnosed a bad differential and tried to charge her. Jeep covered the repair because the dealer failed to property diagnosis the pending failure while it was within warranty. Obviously the amount of time out of warranty and the type of issue matter but if it's an ongoing problem which was miraculously resolved just out of warranty there's a high probability it'll get covered.
 
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USA
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Since we don't know the issue we don't know what an arbiter would/would not do. Anecdotal example: Rear differential was going out on my mothers Jeep and dealer said everything was fine. Warranty expired less than 5k miles later and she brought it in again. Dealer diagnosed a bad differential and tried to charge her. Jeep covered the repair because the dealer failed to property diagnosis the pending failure while it was within warranty. Obviously the amount of time out of warranty and the type of issue matter but if it's an ongoing problem which was miraculously resolved just out of warranty there's a high probability it'll get covered.
Respectfully, having been a court appointed arbiter, I can tell you what process they will follow ( because they have to) This is excluding a voluntary "nuisance" settlement agreement obviously. The terms and conditions of the warranty along with the adherence to it is what will carry the day. (assuming the failure of course is a covered item) The OP has shown proper diligence in attempting to follow the process. "Ostensibly" the dealer has shown proper diligence in resolving the alleged problem. ( this assumption is based on the OP statement alone) 1-1=0 when the warranty expires. To move beyond that, "somebody" will have to positively identify this "issue" to where where it sits above- anything short of that will result in no actionable claim. Even if its found after the fact, the claim will be it wasn't there when we looked or we would have seen it. That's a hard claim to overcome after the fact without some other attempt at discovery because the burden will be on the claimant to prove it as there. Claims about "mystery noises" will have about as much bearing as a UFO sighting. Its always better to resolve an issue while warranty is still open rather trying to re-open one.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
"Good and proper" is subjective.
Not just subjective but probably some of the most dangerous language that can be inserted into a contract or warranty agreement because its also open ended. But its a typical instruction given by the tryer and the "subjective standard" will be either a documented standard/practice, expert opinion or the "reasonable person" standard. Goes back to the OP, even he has stated they "tried" and found nothing. To overcome that ( barring the ability to prove deliberate fraud or other malicious/reckless conduct) the burden still rests with the OP to "prove" there is an issue. The "defendant" doesn't have to "disprove" the claim. Even if found they didn't do everything "right" in most cases the OP will still have to prove there was in fact a problem ( and the only way to do that will be to find it) That's just the way it is.
 
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Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
"Good and proper" is subjective.
Not just subjective but probably some of the most dangerous language that can be inserted into a contract or warranty agreement because its also open ended. But its a typical instruction given by the tryer and the "subjective standard" will be either a documented standard/practice, expert opinion or the "reasonable person" standard. Goes back to the OP, even he has stated they "tried" and found nothing. To overcome that ( barring the ability to prove deliberate fraud or other malicious/reckless conduct) the burden still rests with the OP to "prove" there is an issue. The "defendant" doesn't have to "disprove" the claim. Even if found they didn't do everything "right" in most cases the OP will still have to prove there was in fact a problem ( and the only way to do that will be to find it) That's just the way it is.
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Since we don't know the issue we don't know what an arbiter would/would not do. Anecdotal example: Rear differential was going out on my mothers Jeep and dealer said everything was fine. Warranty expired less than 5k miles later and she brought it in again. Dealer diagnosed a bad differential and tried to charge her. Jeep covered the repair because the dealer failed to property diagnosis the pending failure while it was within warranty. Obviously the amount of time out of warranty and the type of issue matter but if it's an ongoing problem which was miraculously resolved just out of warranty there's a high probability it'll get covered.
Respectfully, having been a court appointed arbiter, I can tell you what process they will follow ( because they have to) This is excluding a voluntary "nuisance" settlement agreement obviously. The terms and conditions of the warranty along with the adherence to it is what will carry the day. (assuming the failure of course is a covered item) The OP has shown proper diligence in attempting to follow the process. "Ostensibly" the dealer has shown proper diligence in resolving the alleged problem. ( this assumption is based on the OP statement alone) 1-1=0 when the warranty expires. To move beyond that, "somebody" will have to positively identify this "issue" to where where it sits above- anything short of that will result in no actionable claim. Even if its found after the fact, the claim will be it wasn't there when we looked or we would have seen it. That's a hard claim to overcome after the fact without some other attempt at discovery because the burden will be on the claimant to prove it as there. Claims about "mystery noises" will have about as much bearing as a UFO sighting. Its always better to resolve an issue while warranty is still open rather trying to re-open one.
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about having to take the case to an arbiter. My mother didn't have to take a case to an arbiter, she just had to talk to the automaker. Some automakers will perform goodwill repairs on vehicles which are out of warranty. Happens all the time.
 
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181
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The first thing I would do is try a different dealer. When you call for an appointment, ask if they will provide a free loaner. Do not mention that you have had another dealer work on the car and "nothing was found". This could cloud the new dealer's opinion from the get-go. Simply schedule the appointment as though it is the first time. When you go in, ask the service advisor to go for a quick ride with you so you can demonstrate the problem directly to them, especially when it comes to noises. If there as a spot around the dealer's location where you can repeatedly get the noise to happen, make sure you include that in your demonstration ride so the noise definitely occurs. Give the new dealer 2 tries to fix the issue (assuming they cannot fix it the first visit.) After the 2nd dealer has tried a couple of times, then get Mazda involved. Tell Mazda you have tried multiple visits from 2 different dealers and have been unable to get the problem resolved. Mazda will then be more apt to work on your behalf since you will have done your diligence in trying multiple options to get the issue resolved.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about having to take the case to an arbiter. My mother didn't have to take a case to an arbiter, she just had to talk to the automaker. Some automakers will perform goodwill repairs on vehicles which are out of warranty. Happens all the time.
No I didn't miss it. I specifically addressed nuisance resolution earlier up thread ( where a company does it to protect/highlight the brand or because its less risk to just absorb it) and that's a very distinct possibility and as you say, it does happen all the time. However, framing this "alleged situation" in context with the OP's description ( a vague noise, "giving trouble", " saying they wont look at it anymore", "wasted too much time" and so forth) leads me to believe that diplomacy has "failed' or at least not produced good fruit. May not be the same circumstances as yours- sounds like a bit of acrimony here to me on the OP's situation based on a history of this problem. Thus my recommendation for a 3rd party at this point.
 
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Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about having to take the case to an arbiter. My mother didn't have to take a case to an arbiter, she just had to talk to the automaker. Some automakers will perform goodwill repairs on vehicles which are out of warranty. Happens all the time.
No I didn't miss it. I specifically addressed nuisance resolution earlier up thread ( where a company does it to protect/highlight the brand or because its less risk to just absorb it) and that's a very distinct possibility and as you say, it does happen all the time. However, framing this "alleged situation" in context with the OP's description ( a vague noise, "giving trouble", " saying they wont look at it anymore", "wasted too much time" and so forth) leads me to believe that diplomacy has "failed' or at least not produced good fruit. May not be the same circumstances as yours- sounds like a bit of acrimony here to me on the OP's situation based on a history of this problem. Thus my recommendation for a 3rd party at this point.
thumbsup
 
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597
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Originally Posted by ryster
When you go in, ask the service advisor to go for a quick ride with you so you can demonstrate the problem directly to them, especially when it comes to noises. If there as a spot around the dealer's location where you can repeatedly get the noise to happen, make sure you include that in your demonstration ride so the noise definitely occurs. Tell Mazda you have tried multiple visits from 2 different dealers and have been unable to get the problem resolved. Mazda will then be more apt to work on your behalf since you will have done your diligence in trying multiple options to get the issue resolved.
If taken at face value as accurate, the OP's first few posts clearly state Mazda has been notified and gone back to said dealer after official notification and there have been multiple attempts to find this "problem" already. I have to believe the Op "attempted' to test-drive or otherwise duplicate the condition. They keep saying they cant find a problem- makes me wonder if the "noises" showed up during the evaluation?
 
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181
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Southeastern, PA
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ryster
When you go in, ask the service advisor to go for a quick ride with you so you can demonstrate the problem directly to them, especially when it comes to noises. If there as a spot around the dealer's location where you can repeatedly get the noise to happen, make sure you include that in your demonstration ride so the noise definitely occurs. Tell Mazda you have tried multiple visits from 2 different dealers and have been unable to get the problem resolved. Mazda will then be more apt to work on your behalf since you will have done your diligence in trying multiple options to get the issue resolved.
If taken at face value as accurate, the OP's first few posts clearly state Mazda has been notified and gone back to said dealer after official notification and there have been multiple attempts to find this "problem" already. I have to believe the Op "attempted' to test-drive or otherwise duplicate the condition. They keep saying they cant find a problem- makes me wonder if the "noises" showed up during the evaluation?
It is hard to tell what the OP has done with the original service department. The OP was asking if they were allowed to go to another dealer and get a loaner. Later posts by the OP do not seem to indicate they have called Mazda directly, but have only been working directly with the service department. I was simply giving my thoughts on what I would do when going to a 2nd dealer to have the issues looked at. Sometimes when you have the service advisor in the car with you when the noise occurs, or the problem manifests, it makes it harder for them to say "no problem found". It is also harder for them to say "we can't apply a software fix if there are no codes" when they can see with the customer actually sitting there with them that the car has the same issues as described by the TSB regardless of whether there is a code thrown or light on. Calling Mazda directly at this point will just result in Mazda calling the original servicing dealer and asking what was found. A different service department may have better technicians. It also allows fresh sets of eyes to look at the car instead of the same group of people looking at the car over and over and not seeing anything.
 
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First dealer only drove it far enough to reach one of my known noise places once. The other times they claim they did but when checking mileage in vs out, they didn't. They fixed a noise the first time, but only 1 out of 3 noises. Second time no problem found. Third time they suggested a ride along but then wouldn't. Fourth visit they have backed out of citing they've wasted a lot of time and covid has them restricting ride along test drives. One rattle noise is admittedly hard to duplicate. It needs to go over a smooth dip where the wheel and suspension droops but not suddenly, then is jounced back up into the car. The cars body staying level. Like ruts through an intersection perpendicular to my direction of travel. One crunching noise is easy to duplicate by backing into a driveway apron. Noises sound different but I'd like to think with a car so new they'd be from one source. But with one being a rattle and one being a crunch like squeak like swaybar bushings it's hard to tell. I have tried a bit on my own to find the noise but I have no access to a lift or front end rack anymore which makes it hard. Besides the fact that it's a car under warranty, they should be the ones diagnosing it, not me. On my way to a second dealer tomorrow, though. They won't let me drop off and take a loaner though.
 
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You guys are right about warranty work paying the tech less. But it pays enough. I worked flat rate 12 years. If the tech and warranty administrator document properly, they will get paid their time for diagnosing even with no results. And having worked for this family of dealerships, many times the repeat problem customers go to the lead techs or supervisors. They are typically paid salary plus a commission, thus less stress to hurry the car out the door. I also offered to give them my car with a full tank of gas and drive it home, to lunch, anything they wanted for days so they get a real feel for the noise(s).
 
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Originally Posted by t1snwrbrdr12
First dealer only drove it far enough to reach one of my known noise places once. The other times they claim they did but when checking mileage in vs out, they didn't. They fixed a noise the first time, but only 1 out of 3 noise One rattle noise is admittedly hard to duplicate. It needs to go over a smooth dip where the wheel and suspension droops but not suddenly, then is jounced back up into the car. The cars body staying level. Like ruts through an intersection perpendicular to my direction of travel. One crunching noise is easy to duplicate by backing into a driveway apron. Noises sound different but I'd like to think with a car so new they'd be from one source. But with one being a rattle and one being a crunch like squeak like swaybar bushings it's hard to tell. I have tried a bit on my own to find the noise but I have no access to a lift or front end rack anymore which makes it hard. Besides the fact that it's a car under warranty, they should be the ones diagnosing it, not me. On my way to a second dealer tomorrow, though. They won't let me drop off and take a loaner though.
You are aware of the possibility that these 'noises" are not indicators of a legitimate malfunction or failure but a normal stress related result of a component? ( or not a "damage" or failure that is correctable through normal means)
 
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Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by t1snwrbrdr12
First dealer only drove it far enough to reach one of my known noise places once. The other times they claim they did but when checking mileage in vs out, they didn't. They fixed a noise the first time, but only 1 out of 3 noise One rattle noise is admittedly hard to duplicate. It needs to go over a smooth dip where the wheel and suspension droops but not suddenly, then is jounced back up into the car. The cars body staying level. Like ruts through an intersection perpendicular to my direction of travel. One crunching noise is easy to duplicate by backing into a driveway apron. Noises sound different but I'd like to think with a car so new they'd be from one source. But with one being a rattle and one being a crunch like squeak like swaybar bushings it's hard to tell. I have tried a bit on my own to find the noise but I have no access to a lift or front end rack anymore which makes it hard. Besides the fact that it's a car under warranty, they should be the ones diagnosing it, not me. On my way to a second dealer tomorrow, though. They won't let me drop off and take a loaner though.
You are aware of the possibility that these 'noises" are not indicators of a legitimate malfunction or failure but a normal stress related result of a component? ( or not a "damage" or failure that is correctable through normal means)
You are aware that a brand new car can have a noise. Or any brand new part you put on your old car. The strut or swaybar bushing or anything can be noisy. That doesn't mean it is unsafe, but it certainly IS a reason to fix it. Manufacturers realize they source bad parts at times and change materials or suppliers to remedy it. Nuisance noises are almost never a dangerous failure but ask any dealer tech, they're chasing them down and fixing them often.
 
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Originally Posted by t1snwrbrdr12
You are aware that a brand new car can have a noise. Or any brand new part you put on your old car. The strut or swaybar bushing or anything can be noisy. That doesn't mean it is unsafe, but it certainly IS a reason to fix it. Manufacturers realize they source bad parts at times and change materials or suppliers to remedy it. Nuisance noises are almost never a dangerous failure but ask any dealer tech, they're chasing them down and fixing them often.
Yes I am aware which is why I brought it up I'm also aware that most warranties only cover defects in material and workmanship, not normal wear and tear or matters of inconvenience or suspicion. So far, it doesn't seem the dealer agrees but there is the old nuisance settlement.
 
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Originally Posted by t1snwrbrdr12
You guys are right about warranty work paying the tech less. But it pays enough. I worked flat rate 12 years. If the tech and warranty administrator document properly, they will get paid their time for diagnosing even with no results. And having worked for this family of dealerships, many times the repeat problem customers go to the lead techs or supervisors. They are typically paid salary plus a commission, thus less stress to hurry the car out the door. I also offered to give them my car with a full tank of gas and drive it home, to lunch, anything they wanted for days so they get a real feel for the noise(s).
Mazda doesn't pay for diag under warranty. Sometimes you can maybe get .2 or .3 but nothing like Ford will pay. FWIW our hourly rate is $140/hr and warranty pays around $102 I think I saw last. Plus the actual labor times are shorter. For an example, Mazda has a warranty extension to replace the dashboard on a Mazda 3. Our Mazda Master Tech has it down to about 7 hours and it maybe 2.7 IIRC.
 
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Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Originally Posted by t1snwrbrdr12
You guys are right about warranty work paying the tech less. But it pays enough. I worked flat rate 12 years. If the tech and warranty administrator document properly, they will get paid their time for diagnosing even with no results. And having worked for this family of dealerships, many times the repeat problem customers go to the lead techs or supervisors. They are typically paid salary plus a commission, thus less stress to hurry the car out the door. I also offered to give them my car with a full tank of gas and drive it home, to lunch, anything they wanted for days so they get a real feel for the noise(s).
Mazda doesn't pay for diag under warranty. Sometimes you can maybe get .2 or .3 but nothing like Ford will pay. FWIW our hourly rate is $140/hr and warranty pays around $102 I think I saw last. Plus the actual labor times are shorter. For an example, Mazda has a warranty extension to replace the dashboard on a Mazda 3. Our Mazda Master Tech has it down to about 7 hours and it maybe 2.7 IIRC.
Sorry to hear that. Mazda seems a bit stingy compared to what I saw with Chrysler Subaru and Hyundai. On a side note, you heard any noises out of these new 6's? PM me if you'd rather avoid here and this nonsense. I read up on the LCA TSB but it seems to not apply according to the first dealer and my vin. Just didn't know what type of noise those bad bushings give and if mine may have been included in that bulliten even though they claim otherwise.
 
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