I've never used the self-check out system and wondered how it worked if something didn't ring up right or didn't read the barcode.
Walmart v. Cicero
- Thread starter Cicero17
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You have to wait forever for some manager to come over and override the system and let you continue on. One reason why people never use those self-checkout systems...
[quote
Good for the goose ..good for the gander. You don't have the right to determine intolerable for him ..just as he doesn't for you. Sounds simple to me
Not personally, but we decide what is and is not inolerable for others all the time - we do it through legislatures that pass laws setting the guidelines and boundaries of our behavior with others.
It apparently looks like 6-12 of his fellow citizens will make the ultimate decision on the particular facts of this matter.
Good for the goose ..good for the gander. You don't have the right to determine intolerable for him ..just as he doesn't for you. Sounds simple to me
Not personally, but we decide what is and is not inolerable for others all the time - we do it through legislatures that pass laws setting the guidelines and boundaries of our behavior with others.
It apparently looks like 6-12 of his fellow citizens will make the ultimate decision on the particular facts of this matter.
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Ah ...but my comparison is no comparison. I have entered no opinion of anything "criminal" here. I'm stating on how I've managed to view WM policy as antisocial.
That is, you have principles of dignity that are insulted with treating those in an undignified manner (not my argument - just a side note).
Gary,
I was more cryptic than I wanted to be in my prior post. My point was that the only presumption of innocence I'm aware of is applicable only in criminal proceedings; there is no analog to it in commercial transactions that I'm aware of, therefore I don't get how asking to see a receipt can be anti social. It may be ineffective, it may be bad business, it may be an indignity, I just don't know - I just can't get my head around it being anti social.
As I stated in the thread last month, I think the societal norm is to take one's business elesewhere - my opinion has not changed in the intervening month
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It doesn't matter at all. The receipt checker can observe a person paying and his job is still to be done. There are two expected standard reactions to the presence of a receipt checker:
1. Customer produces a receipt, which is NOT checked -- the receipt checker may pretend to match purchased items against the receipt, but often they only want to see the receipt and to possibly put a check mark on it, while scanning your bag or cart with X-ray vision.
2. Customer drops his loot and makes a dash for the door, escaping.
The number 3 option, "customer is being difficult and makes a stand," is not expected due to the masses being sheep.
I have yet to get into an argument with a door greeter or receipt checker. When they ask for a receipt I simply tell them "I don't have time for this." What a lousy job this is.
My local Home Depot was for a while especially nasty with the receipt checking. The last three times I went there I didn't see any receipt checker. By the way, this Home Depot has now only one regular checkout line. The other stations are all self-checkout lines. There's one employee overlooking all the self-checkout lines, and he will aid (slowly like a snail) if the scanner malfunctions (always push down with some pressure when scanning light items) or if you by potential terrorism supplies (for example spray paint -- everybody MUST now supply his DOB to buy spray paint!).
moribundman has a point... when Wal-Mart was checking receipts where I lived - they never asked you to take stuff out of the bags ... they could never see what you had! So ... .... the point was.... ????
The point is to fight every battle, resist every authority and life will be better for you.
Well maybe it will tie your butt up in court and make life awful. I don't know.
Good luck to you Don.
Well maybe it will tie your butt up in court and make life awful. I don't know.
Good luck to you Don.
Quote:
Exactly. He knew what was going to happen when he exited the store. He went looking for trouble and he found it.
If you don't want to show your receipt at the exit then shop where they don't ask you to show it. It's that simple.
I certainly have to agree. When I was young I had excess testosterone (like most of you) I learned painful lessons the hard way. Physical confrontation (to me) went out with cave men. I just don't get the concept here. Doesn't have a whole lot of "Value added", as we used to say in my previous working life.
The only run in I have ever had is with a security guy at Best Buy. I was more than a little irritated that I wasn't able to return my rechargeable battery that was DOA, and when the Security guy asked me to see my receipt for the purchase on the way back out (after he checked it already on the way in) I told him to "bite me". He just looked at me stunned as I walked past him. Maybe it is the way I am wired but I felt bad about being rude to the guy. He is just following the policy of his employer and did nothing to provoke my outburst (I said it pretty loud).
Mori,
The spray paint age verification has been in California for many years. The intent is to cut down on "taggers". Whether it does accomplish this or not is anyone's guess.
Mori,
The spray paint age verification has been in California for many years. The intent is to cut down on "taggers". Whether it does accomplish this or not is anyone's guess.
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More often than not principles go out the window due to the convenience factor.
"every authority"? I think we should define who or what constitutes an authority. Wal-Mart and their drones are not authorities.
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Not so..... well, sorta. There is absolutely NO MANDATE that our presumption of innocence is ONLY applicable in criminal proceedings. We are presumed "innocent" in our default conduct as a bona fide citizen of the USA. We are not subject to unlawful search and seizure ..we have the right to privacy ..and any number of other assured liberties because we have done nothing to have them withheld from us.
So, if WM wants to enter into an ad campaign ...or even a very large simple language sign that says, "WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER WE WANT TO YOU. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. EAT and DIE and take your money elsewhere" .......fine. Otherwise, if you all of a sudden feel yourself frisked at WM (you appear to think that this would be fine if it was their policy, right? Their house ..their rules) ..just shrug ..bend over and smile "Thank you very much, sir! Can I have another." ..and when they're done ..take your business elsewhere.
I'm naturally
I agree with Groucho.
Never, ever submit to "authority" merely because it tells you to.
However, sometimes you must choose your battles.
And I agree with mori, to a point. Wal-Mart is not an authority. Maybe on their proerty they can make some of the rules, but no Wal-Mart employee has a right to lay hands on a customer.
Awesome post Gary ^^ Agreed. I dunno where the line was drawn. I was surprised to be "frisked" and patted down upon entering Disneyland. Then I thought, since there are a ton of people here maybe that is OK. But Wal-Mart has some people.
I think the overall point people are taking here is: Would you have resisted or would you have not resisted and then taken your business elsewhere? Was going back to Wal-Mart questionable when you disagree with receipt checking policies? (This gets deep).
I think the overall point people are taking here is: Would you have resisted or would you have not resisted and then taken your business elsewhere? Was going back to Wal-Mart questionable when you disagree with receipt checking policies? (This gets deep).
authority on their premises depends on how they inform you BEFORE you enter the place on what the exit procedures are.
Here, stores tell you before you enter that bags must be presented as you exit. By entering the store, you are in contract to present your bags on exit.
If it's a case of "everyone knows", that's not a contract to present anything.
Dunno, as I've never been in a Walmart.
Here, stores tell you before you enter that bags must be presented as you exit. By entering the store, you are in contract to present your bags on exit.
If it's a case of "everyone knows", that's not a contract to present anything.
Dunno, as I've never been in a Walmart.
JHZR2
Staff member
Right, Iagree that contractually, by virtue of entering private property (though it is open to the public, it is not public unrestricted land), one potentially would be open to agreeing to search or whatnot by virtue of using the store. However, in Wal-mart, it certainly isnt explicitly laid out for me to know this - so asfar as I can reasonably know, it is not something that I agreed to.
Now, if Im walking out, and the beeper goes off, that is a testament to the shoddy service that wal-mart gives, but it is perfectly reasonable to be confronted by someone checking reciepts and who is going to deactivate the tag if needs be. Heck, let the person doing this bea security guard for all I care.
However, no beep, I am not a thief by default. Therefore do not treat me as one without at least informing me of store policy before I go in so I can make a decision of if I shop there.
Wal mart tells me that they arenot liable for damage to my car when I park there. Fine, thats great, they are informing me of my consent to this term, and I take the risk parking there... This is how it shouldbe laid out if they are going to enforce reciept checking. Inform and you're fine. Beep and I can see the logic. Dont inform me of the agreement, do it and then dare touch me when I dont give into your ridiculous demand that assumed I am a thief??? no good.
I have to agree with Gary. And, while it certainly is our right to take the easy path and just not shop there, it certainly is a reflection on our lousy society that will fight for rights in the third world, yet let our own be erroded away before our eyes. And its not the government imposing laws, which is a line that I will draw within reason - this is a private company vieing for my buck. That is a big difference.
At this point though it is just a bleeding match. You can thak our lawyer's monopoly for making it so tough for something to be completed efficiently and economically. That is the biggest injustice of all.
JMH
Now, if Im walking out, and the beeper goes off, that is a testament to the shoddy service that wal-mart gives, but it is perfectly reasonable to be confronted by someone checking reciepts and who is going to deactivate the tag if needs be. Heck, let the person doing this bea security guard for all I care.
However, no beep, I am not a thief by default. Therefore do not treat me as one without at least informing me of store policy before I go in so I can make a decision of if I shop there.
Wal mart tells me that they arenot liable for damage to my car when I park there. Fine, thats great, they are informing me of my consent to this term, and I take the risk parking there... This is how it shouldbe laid out if they are going to enforce reciept checking. Inform and you're fine. Beep and I can see the logic. Dont inform me of the agreement, do it and then dare touch me when I dont give into your ridiculous demand that assumed I am a thief??? no good.
I have to agree with Gary. And, while it certainly is our right to take the easy path and just not shop there, it certainly is a reflection on our lousy society that will fight for rights in the third world, yet let our own be erroded away before our eyes. And its not the government imposing laws, which is a line that I will draw within reason - this is a private company vieing for my buck. That is a big difference.
At this point though it is just a bleeding match. You can thak our lawyer's monopoly for making it so tough for something to be completed efficiently and economically. That is the biggest injustice of all.
JMH
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There is no public notice clarifying, addressing or even mentioning this issue outside or inside the store.
Somehow right and wrong is being confused with the legal system here.
Please take note.
Please take note.
I don't think "fighting the power" and "refusing to submit to authority" means making an J-O of yourself at the exit of a Wal-Mart. It is a free country... if you don't like the policy, go buy your Chinese garbage elsewhere. Going to a W-M on your own free will, knowing full well that they will ask to see your receipt at the exit hardly meets the definition of oppression.
You guys kill me. LOL This is a case of assault and battery. Cicero should never have pushed the WalMart employee to the floor.* That's what he got arrested for. There are any number of ways to object to WalMart's policy without breaking the peace. Cicero chose not to avail himself of those ways and now he's reaping the benefits of his actions.
*Based on what I saw in the video, if the jury gets the correct instruction on self defense Cicero is probably not going to walk on this.
*Based on what I saw in the video, if the jury gets the correct instruction on self defense Cicero is probably not going to walk on this.
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