What if there were no rhetorical questions?quote:
Originally posted by DavoNF:
If there is no "arm twisting" going on, why does this exact same engine, manufactured in USA, require a 15w40 in Australia? I have a 5.0L Ford and the owners manual and workshop manual both quote this as the recommended viscosity.
We have no CAFE requirements here.
Dave
Viscosity Has No Effect on Wear?
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"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it -even if I have said it - unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
- The Buddha
- The Buddha
NASA engineer- "Don't send it up."
NSSA management- "Send it up!"
NASA press relase- "We have the upmost confidence in our decison making processes."
But, but but, but....NASA said it should go up, so surely the engineers thought it was best to go..... Do you mean to tell me that the engineers don't make the final decisions where technical matters count????
A general comment, obviously not directed at you, OilAnal.
Well doh! Welcome to the world.
[ February 02, 2004, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: XS650 ]
Thank-you. I was not trying to assert that higher viscosity oils were better, categorically, than lower viscosity oils. I was only putting this on the table for discussion as the the reverse proposition, as advanced by this author, seems just as invalid. As I have said many times before, I am not an expert but I do personally agree with what some others have said in this thread...That whatever viscosity(lowest) produces an oil film that keeps the metal parts seperated is the right one and that may vary by application and perhaps also temperature. This Blackstone author appears to disagree with this and I find it quite surprising.
In Europe dealers came even far with Japaneese imports: till 2000 Honda dealers were using exclusively 5W-40 synthetics or 10W-40 semi-synthetics, all ACEA A3/B3, since 2000: 0w30 or 5w30 ACEA A3/B3 synthetics, except some Integras and Preludes where they still recommend mostly 5W-40 or 10W-40. Notice: 0W-30, 0W-40 and 5W-40 grades are not stipulated in Civic, Accord and Prelude manuals !quote:
Originally posted by DavoNF:
If there is no "arm twisting" going on, why does this exact same engine, manufactured in USA, require a 15w40 in Australia? I have a 5.0L Ford and the owners manual and workshop manual both quote this as the recommended viscosity.
We have no CAFE requirements here.
Dave [/QB]
Interesting Rover who uses a lot of Honda engines in their cars allows to use from 0w30 to 10W-60 of ACEA A3 quality, except engines K1.8 and M47R that require xW-30, but again ACEA A3 quality only.
Patman
Staff member
You're right, I wouldn't, but only because I know from my testing that my engine likes a thicker 30wt oil, and possibly would like a thin 40wt oil too. Although the one problem I have with most of the 0w40s and 5w40s out there is that I'm not confident in their cold flow ability compared to a 0w30. Even though they share the same 0w rating, their viscosity at 40c is thicker, plus their CCS numbers are not as good.
I would have no problem running a 0w20 in my wife's Honda, even though hers is a 2000 model which was the last year to specify 5w30. If Mobil 1 0w20 ever comes to Canada, I might just consider giving it a try in her car someday.
Its all how the vehicle is used. His 5W20 in his Corolla could be thicker on average than a 5-40 in my Camry due to type of driving cycles and temps. involved. Oil "thickness" changes dramatically due to temperature. If you picture the mfg. wants a certain average oil film thickness, and consider how the great majority of vehicles are used, you can see why the 5-20 and 5-30 recommendations. If I did 10 mile trips in Phoenix AZ, I'd be comfortable with it too. I tend toward the heavier grades because of my hour long (or better) duty cycles in hot weather.
I have a problem with increased consumption/burn-off with thinner oils contributing to deposits such as sludge and varnish which then directly contribute engine wear.
That's why the choice of viscosity is a temperature thing. ie. if you live in Antarctica, a 0-20 would probably give you the same wear protection as a 15-50 in Florida. That's why I hate U.S. manuf. "blanket statement" viscosity recommendation: 5w30.
In either case, I'm still waiting for someone to illustrate how a UOA shows oil consumption and increased sludge with one oil versus another.
The bottom line is there IS a correlation between viscosity and wear. The question is whether you need it or care about it. That's why a Ferrari Enzo or BMW M3 uses a 10-60. That's why a Commercial truck +/- towing duties is better off with a HD 15w40. Protection is offered by these viscosities whether or not it's seen on UOA's. But, not all of us to 10k lbs or have engines that rev. to 10k rpm....
That's why the choice of viscosity is a temperature thing. ie. if you live in Antarctica, a 0-20 would probably give you the same wear protection as a 15-50 in Florida. That's why I hate U.S. manuf. "blanket statement" viscosity recommendation: 5w30.
In either case, I'm still waiting for someone to illustrate how a UOA shows oil consumption and increased sludge with one oil versus another.
The bottom line is there IS a correlation between viscosity and wear. The question is whether you need it or care about it. That's why a Ferrari Enzo or BMW M3 uses a 10-60. That's why a Commercial truck +/- towing duties is better off with a HD 15w40. Protection is offered by these viscosities whether or not it's seen on UOA's. But, not all of us to 10k lbs or have engines that rev. to 10k rpm....
I will assume this reference is to a sludged engine. Anyway, I researched stated flash point from company product info sheets for about half a dozen different brand dino and a blend oil over 5w30 through 20w50. There was fairly strong positive relationship between flash point and viscosity. We can extrapolate for the 5w20 oils. Bottom line, it seems that though you may not get excess wear with a thinner oil, you might get excess deposits in your engine. When that oil volitizes from a lower flash point, it invariably leaves residue behind.
CAFE! Sometimes I wish the "greens" would all just go ride bicycles and leave the driving to us.
1qt/1k mile is normal?? That sure wouldn't be acceptable here unless of course you own a GM LS1 oil guzzler.
It's not normal in NA either, but that's what the car companies will tell you if you have an oil guzler that is still on warranty.
Patman
Staff member
I wouldn't even find that acceptable if I owned an LS1! My old LS1 used 1/8th of a quart of oil or less in a 3000 mile interval, even if I made tons of quarter mile runs (such as the one interval where I made 30 runs down the 1/4 in a 2 hour period!)
Hi,
Porsche have long had an oil use limit of 1.5ltr/1000kms ( 1qt/600 miles approx )
Some German makers use a more accurate oil used/fuel consumed ratio when handling excessive use when under Warranty
Programmed oil consumption is very important when going to extended OCI's. Some Euro's are now out to two years as we know
Regards
Regards
Porsche have long had an oil use limit of 1.5ltr/1000kms ( 1qt/600 miles approx )
Some German makers use a more accurate oil used/fuel consumed ratio when handling excessive use when under Warranty
Programmed oil consumption is very important when going to extended OCI's. Some Euro's are now out to two years as we know
Regards
Regards
buster, my hesitation to useing a 20Wt is not weather or not it can do a decent job in a small number of applications out of thousands. My problem with 20Wt oils is that we know that an HTHS or 2.6-2.9 is the bare minimum you can have and expect any life out of an engine that is just mildy used. If the the minium is 2.6-2.9 and your oil is 2.6-2.9 to start where is your cushion! What happens when you exceed the meger limits of what a 2.6-2.9 HTHS can provide! What happens when you run a quart low for 5000 miles? WHat happens when you are trying to snatch another vechile from a swamp? WHat happens if you get bad gas or a stuck injector and get detonation? What happens when you decide to dance with the Redlin at 8200-10,000 RPM's? WHy aren't any commercial diesel engine manufactures or European engine manufactures jumping on this? Why is it that their is no 5W20 recomendation out side of the USA???
I am still waiting to see how many Honda's and Fords are smokeing like landing craft smoke generators at 120,000-200,000 miles because of 5W20. I figure in 5 years or so we should know if this is going to be a huge problem!
I am still waiting to see how many Honda's and Fords are smokeing like landing craft smoke generators at 120,000-200,000 miles because of 5W20. I figure in 5 years or so we should know if this is going to be a huge problem!
JB, I agree with that. I"m not advocating 20wts as the new holy grail. All I'm saying is that well made one for a car that calls for one, is fine IMO. Under different circumstances/engine/conditions etc. no they are not the most idea probably.
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