VIRGIN MC FL-400S CUT OPEN

[ARCOgraphite]

I'd say the delta-p difference across a center tube with holes vs louvers is going to be very small ... too small to pose any issues or concerns. Oil filters have been built for decades with holes in the center tube. The concern that louvers present is to verify they aren't choked down excessively before spinning the filter on to the engine. Don't have to think about that with holes in the center tube.

I might tend to disagree on this, but I am just bench racing here.
The spirals and louvers expose much more pleat and media area to the center tube.
Engineers didn't switch to this more involved stamping without reason. I say if you can hold a filter cartridge in your hand it's
small - and needs help. This is obvious from all the torn pleats we are seeing . Same thing I noticed on my Honda branded filter with two torn pleats after being in service through Winter- a $14 (dealer parts counter) premium filter sourced from Roki-Filtech.

The Delta p on and around the pleat should be minimal in running. Must be happening during startup; suspect an issue with a partial filled filter with large Delta P flowing viscous oil. Or even just replenishing once hot drained-down mains drills and galleries.
- Ken

 

[ZeeOSix]

I might tend to disagree on this, but I am just bench racing here.
The spirals and louvers expose much more pleat and media area to the center tube.

The oil needs to go through the media before it can go through the center tube, and all oil that goes through the media will go through the center tube. The media is not tight up against any center tube enough to effect the flow through the media because the oil basically flows through the sides of the media pleats much more easily than it flows through the folded edges of the pleats. All the oil that flows through the media will find a way to the holes or louvers once it's flowed through the media. The delta-p across the center tube will still be a function of the oil flow volume, oil viscosity and the flow area of the holes or louvers. More center tube (or base plate hole) flow area won't make the flow inclrease when the flow is a fixed function of the PD oil pump at the PRM it's turning. All it can do is decrease the delta-p across those components by a small amount.

Engineers didn't switch to this more involved stamping without reason. I say if you can hold a filter cartridge in your hand it's
small - and needs help. This is obvious from all the torn pleats we are seeing . Same thing I noticed on my Honda branded filter with two torn pleats after being in service through Winter- a $14 (dealer parts counter) premium filter sourced from Roki-Filtech.

I highly doubt the switch from holes to louvers was to enhance the "flow performance" by reducing the delta-p acorss the center tube by a few tenths of a PSI. It was most likely switched becasue louvers are easier to make and have less scrap to deal with during the manufacturing process.

Torn pleats aren't caused or not caused because the center tube has holes, louvers or eCore window (except for eCore windows that are way to large, lol). Media tears simply because the media becomes distorted enough, or has too wide of pleat spacing, which causes the force from the flowing oil to fold the pleats over in a way that the media can't take the bending stress, and it therefore tears. We have seen in this forum torn filters regardless of the center tube design.

The Delta p on and around the pleat should be minimal in running. Must be happening during startup; suspect an issue with a partial filled filter with large Delta P flowing viscous oil. Or even just replenishing once hot drained-down mains drills and galleries.
- Ken

The delta-p across an oil filter assembly is by far caused by the media itself. The base plate holes and the center tube is a small fraction of the total. A partially filled filter doesn't cause any more delta-p across the media than a full filter does on start-up. If a wall of oil hits a dry oil filter, the delta-p is still the same if that same volume started flowing through a fully filled oil filter. Delta-p is delta-p, regardless if the filter is dry or fully filled when the oil flow hits the media.

Of course the delta-p is a lot higher when the oil is cold and thick, so if the media pleats are wide spaced, and fold over they could tear at any time when the tearing factors align right. Any oil filter if designed properly should be able to take the max delta-p as controlled by the bypass valve all day long without causing any damage or media tearing. One of the main purposes of the filter bypass valve is to ensure the filter isn't damaged from high delta-p when it becomes clogged and/or when the oil is super thick during very cold winter start-ups.

 

[bullwinkle]

Hey, I thought you would run them first! (Just kidding, I still have more). They work pretty well on the Matrixes in the family in place of the teacup filters.

 

[53' Stude]

Hey, I thought you would run them first! (Just kidding, I still have more). They work pretty well on the Matrixes in the family in place of the teacup filters.

I will put the oldest on on next; hopefully before heading to Carlisle. The ancient Alloed Signal TG filter has 15k on it

 

[ARCOgraphite]

The oil needs to go through the media before it can go through the center tube, and all oil that goes through the media will go through the center tube. The media is not tight up against any center tube enough to effect the flow through the media because the oil basically flows through the sides of the media pleats much more easily than it flows through the folded edges of the pleats. Filters I have examined have folded pleat edges tight against the perforations as all the media folds are compressed together near the tube, though there are gaps visible when dry and unpressurised. All the oil that flows through the media will find a way to the holes or louvers once it's flowed through the media. The delta-p across the center tube will still be a function of the oil flow volume, oil viscosity and the flow area of the holes or louvers. More center tube (or base plate hole) flow area won't make the flow inclrease when the flow is a fixed function of the PD oil pump at the PRM it's turning. All it can do is decrease the delta-p across those components by a small amount. See below. I suggest the spiral channels allow more pathways to the perforations. The Pump is only PD up to the pump relief pop-off. Then there will be a pressure head at inlet and then subsequently the filter media where it will flow at its capability with say 80 psi head operating against the relief and no more. With a delta P greater than the bypass setting (typ 7-27psig) the bypass will of course open


I highly doubt the switch from holes to louvers was to enhance the "flow performance" by reducing the delta-p acorss the center tube by a few tenths of a PSI. It was most likely switched because louvers are easier to make and have less scrap to deal with during the manufacturing process. I agree that it is easier to manufacture the spiral core, you will have a longer tooling service when you are not punching holes. I would also suggest The spiral tubes with deep channels allow a cavity for oil to exit the media and migrate to the perforations, plus they add stiffness. Perforations as louvers or holes will not make a difference if the total open area are similar - and that windowed area is likely always much greater than the outlet area.

Torn pleats aren't caused or not caused because the center tube has holes, louvers or eCore window (except for eCore windows that are way to large, lol). Media tears simply because the media becomes distorted enough, or has too wide of pleat spacing, which causes the force from the flowing oil to fold the pleats over in a way that the media can't take the bending stress, and it therefore tears. We have seen in this forum torn filters regardless of the center tube design. I agree the tearing is caused by a significant delta p and oil flow velocity. I would suggest this occurs startup when there no pressure head at the filter outlet. At steady state with the mains pressurized the pressure should equal on both sides of the pleat we are not blowing oil out to the atmosphere the delta p is minimal, though I will concur that with even a small delta the force per unit area on the fragile media are great.


The delta-p across an oil filter assembly is by far caused by the media itself. I Suggest The delta has to be MUCH greater when the mains are not pressurized

I think we are mainly in general agreement, Z. I wish I was back at my startup in Wilmington, We had an engineer we grabbed from Titleist running flow simulations on a supercomputer for our proprietary polymer injection mold tooling. This would be an easy one on which to run some "what if" scenarios. Even with the stacked core processor it took overnight to run a simulation, then some times it choked, which was disappointing for us 'champing at the bit' for results the following day. - Ken

 

[ZeeOSix]

See my responses below to these two comments you made.

I agree the tearing is caused by a significant delta p and oil flow velocity. I would suggest this occurs startup when there no pressure head at the filter outlet. At steady state with the mains pressurized the pressure should equal on both sides of the pleat we are not blowing oil out to the atmosphere the delta p is minimal, though I will concur that with even a small delta the force per unit area on the fragile media are great.

The delta-p across the media is solely a function of the flow volume and viscosity of the oil going through the filter. When there is no "head at the filter outlet" there is sill the same delta-p occurring across the media as there would be if there was pressure on the other side when the mains are fully flowing and causing a pressure head on the outlet of the oil filter.

Look at it this way ... in all of the scenarios below with say a constant 3 GPM of oil flow, all of these scenarios that we will assume cause a 5 PSI of delta-p, they all will result in the same exact delta-p across the media. Assume the filter is bone dry and the oil galleries after/above the filter are empty at a start-up after an oil change.

Example: Engine starts and engine RPM jumps to a constant 1200 RPM, and the filter starts to receive oil flow until the entire oiling system is at full pressure, which takes 5 seconds. Assume flow it a constant 3 GPM (at 1200 RPM), which results in a 5 PSI delta-p across the media with the cold oil. Full oil pressure when the system is fully equalized is 40 PSI. The filter outlet pressure is the pressure seen on the oiling system pressure sensor located after the filter.Values are in PSI.

No flow at the filter yet.
Filter inlet = 0, filter outlet = 0, delta-p = 0

Filter becomes filled with oil and the oiling system just starts to pressurize (put pressure sensor still reads 0 PSI) as the oil flows throughout the system.
Filter inlet = 5, filter outlet = 0, delta-p = 5

As time goes by, the oiling system continues to pressurize and system oil pressure increases on oil pressure gauge located after the filter.
Filter inlet = 10, filter outlet = 5, delta-p = 5

Filter inlet = 20, filter outlet = 15, delta-p = 5

Filter inlet = 30, filter outlet = 25, delta-p = 5

Filter inlet = 40, filter outlet = 35, delta-p = 5

Oiling system at full start-up pressure - 40 PSI on the oil pressure gauge located after the filter.
Filter inlet = 45, filter outlet = 40, delta-p = 5

The delta-p across the filter is constant 5 PSI throughout this whole time because the oil flow volume and oil viscosity going through the filter has been constant the whole time.

I Suggest The delta has to be MUCH greater when the mains are not pressurized.

It can't be ... see above. What makes you think it is?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Man… I coulda used that thing

They are impossible to find outside a ford dealer…

WM sells plenty of them. My local WM keeps the shelf very well stocked with them.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Thems are public searchable harsh words. What's wrong with the new ones? just put a smaller FL-910s on my Ford. Was running a FL-400s. I wish I had a filter cutter, my Dremel is broken. I have three USED filters on deck.

New style MC cut open: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/new-style-mc-fl-400s-cut-open.348024/

I just recently cut one open.

MC FL-400S With Dent C&P

(1) of (2) FL-400S oil filters I ordered from EBAY. It had a dent in it and the vendor refunded my money.

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[ARCOgraphite]

See my responses below to these two comments you made.

...

The delta-p across the filter is constant 5 PSI throughout this whole time because the oil flow volume and oil viscosity going through the filter has been constant the whole time.


It can't be ... see above. What makes you think it is?

I would hazard those are assumptions not charted gauge data which can be very dynamic initially until the system is stabilised.
As the System is filling and the outlet is compressing mainly air - and open to atmosphere - not "incompressable" viscous fluid, the data will be as you would expect, the function of volume flow and the impedance of the filter components and connexions.

What I suggest as delta P max event occurs in likely a couple tenths of a second or less and would not be noted without responsive charting using reporting sensors.

Again this is an assumption by me, also. Without physical designed experiment - of powerful simulation software I cannot know for sure. - Ken

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I just recently cut one open.
[

Now I really want to cut open my last filter - since my oil was really, really dirty on a blotter test at 2K miles.
I remember I was running the FL- 400S and I think it was the older "good" unit with the old box design; I still have the box too.

I have all filters used during the new car warranty, They don't take up that much room. Plus evidence that I changed the oil and filter.
or at least the filter! - Ken

 

[bullwinkle]

See my responses below to these two comments you made.


The delta-p across the media is solely a function of the flow volume and viscosity of the oil going through the filter. When there is no "head at the filter outlet" there is sill the same delta-p occurring across the media as there would be if there was pressure on the other side when the mains are fully flowing and causing a pressure head on the outlet of the oil filter.

Look at it this way ... in all of the scenarios below with say a constant 3 GPM of oil flow, all of these scenarios that we will assume cause a 5 PSI of delta-p, they all will result in the same exact delta-p across the media. Assume the filter is bone dry and the oil galleries after/above the filter are empty at a start-up after an oil change.

Example: Engine starts and engine RPM jumps to a constant 1200 RPM, and the filter starts to receive oil flow until the entire oiling system is at full pressure, which takes 5 seconds. Assume flow it a constant 3 GPM (at 1200 RPM), which results in a 5 PSI delta-p across the media with the cold oil. Full oil pressure when the system is fully equalized is 40 PSI. The filter outlet pressure is the pressure seen on the oiling system pressure sensor located after the filter.Values are in PSI.

No flow at the filter yet.
Filter inlet = 0, filter outlet = 0, delta-p = 0

Filter becomes filled with oil and the oiling system just starts to pressurize (put pressure sensor still reads 0 PSI) as the oil flows throughout the system.
Filter inlet = 5, filter outlet = 0, delta-p = 5

As time goes by, the oiling system continues to pressurize and system oil pressure increases on oil pressure gauge located after the filter.
Filter inlet = 10, filter outlet = 5, delta-p = 5

Filter inlet = 20, filter outlet = 15, delta-p = 5

Filter inlet = 30, filter outlet = 25, delta-p = 5

Filter inlet = 40, filter outlet = 35, delta-p = 5

Oiling system at full start-up pressure - 40 PSI on the oil pressure gauge located after the filter.
Filter inlet = 45, filter outlet = 40, delta-p = 5

The delta-p across the filter is constant 5 PSI throughout this whole time because the oil flow volume and oil viscosity going through the filter has been constant the whole time.


It can't be ... see above. What makes you think it is?

Wouldn't the oil start to thin out, as it warms up, & then delta-p would start dropping, as compared to cold oil?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Wouldn't the oil start to thin out, as it warms up, & then delta-p would start dropping, as compared to cold oil?

Of coures. Oil pressure and delta-p is also effected by engine RPM. Never a good thing to redline an engine 5 seconds after doing a cold start. I actually saw someone do that to an old pickup truck in the winter after he fired it up cold, lol.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I would hazard those are assumptions not charted gauge data which can be very dynamic initially until the system is stabilised.
As the System is filling and the outlet is compressing mainly air - and open to atmosphere - not "incompressable" viscous fluid, the data will be as you would expect, the function of volume flow and the impedance of the filter components and connexions.

What I suggest as delta P max event occurs in likely a couple tenths of a second or less and would not be noted without responsive charting using reporting sensors.

Again this is an assumption by me, also. Without physical designed experiment - of powerful simulation software I cannot know for sure. - Ken

I'm assuming you've seen the couple of threads posted lately that show YouTube videos of the oil flowing in a clear oil filter. If not, watch them and you'll see the oil flow at start-up isn't "screaming" into the filter. It's not like a solid wall hitting the media. There isn't enough impulse force on the media to make it tear. The oil flow velocity and volume is the same gong through the media regardless if there is air or oil on the back side of the media. The delta-p is simply a function of that oil flow and the oil viscosity. If there was some destructive impulse force on a dry filter upon start-up, we would probably see more damaged filters than we do since few people pre-fill oil filters and slap them on dry during an OCI.

My theory is the filters with wide pleats that tear do so because people drive off very shortly after a cold start with some pretty high RPM and that gets the delta-p in the filter up to the max filter bypass PSI, which is high enough to tear those wide pleats by bending them over.