VAT on the way?

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
"Paul, why are your business taxes so high in the USA?"


Because we have a military unlike HK.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
GST is an abuse on small business. We already have a state sales tax. If we get a national one as well, who do you think does the grunt work?

But when I was responding to Gary I was referring to taxes in general. I do agree, sales taxes are a bit less onerous than income taxes, especially scaled (read: stepped) income tax.


Why is it an abuse on small business? Just because your business isn't in the upper hand doesn't means it is abuse to small businesses. For one, large businesses can't cheat taxes as easily as the small guys.

 

[Pablo]

Because I don't have the means to collect and keep track of another tax. If I get taxed, I don't cheat. I do it correctly....in my "spare time".

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Gary, I love you to death my friend, but even I am having trouble understanding you in this thread!

You're starting to sound like Chavez.

Love you too, pal

I could care less with parity or equity or "fairness", per se~

Like I said, I could care less how much you make. I do care how much you contribute to the costs of the society.

It's very simple. If you make more money in an environment ..don't you have the most vested interest in the maintenance of the environment? That should be very simple to see.

If that's digestible, then if I make 5X what you do, I'm extracting 5X the vitality out of the environment ..realizing 5X the benefits ...etc..etc. I'll live 5X a better life than you. I'll command 5X the power and mobility you will.

Why should I pay the same fare that you do ..especially if I'm gaining ground in a shrinking market (taking all debts and monetary shifts in terms of REAL utility and worth)???

What good am I bringing to the table except soaking up resources and paying little into the environment that provides them?

When I say resources ...hmmmm..let's take a basketball game. Now points will be $$$.

What happened when Sir Charles was on the Sixers. He would routinely score 38+/- points a game. What happened when he got injured? Mo Cheeks or someone else would score 33+/- instead of in the lower double digits.

That is, the physics of the game and the composition of the team limited the "opportunities" to score. When Charles wasn't hogging the ball, others "prospered" for him NOT being there.

Just like the physics of the game are limited ..so is the confines of our little nation. Now you can cite expanding economies and growth ..but these catchy phrases aren't translating to "prosparity" ..they're translating to ever increasing levels of dysfunction.

Hence anyone who's still hanging up on the rafters as the floor is collapsing is doing it at the collapsing floor's expense.

 

[Pablo]

So if we follow your inane logic, the 5X'ers should get 5X the say, 5X the votes. But no, that violates the dream world.

Listen Gary, we have a progressive income tax. The more you earn the more you pay. A whole lot of lower income people pay nothing, and a bunch even GET some money given to them. Why isn't that satisfactory enough for you?

The only answer is to cut the spending. It's a pretty simple concept.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
The only answer is to cut the spending. It's a pretty simple concept.


..and in a vacuum ..it is simple.

..but what are the necessary consequences?


Edit: I had more to say ..but I'll leave anything else offered as the last word.

 

[Shannow]

Was having another think about the "fairness" of the GST.

Really, you have quite a bit of control over how much tax you pay under a GST.

When I bought my Nissan, I paid an additional $800 GST to the Gumment by choosing an ST-R rather than a DX model. When I chose the latest TV, I gave them $50, instead of the $1,000 that I could have by choosing from the other end of the shop.

I can choose to cook a chicken, rather than buying a cooked one, saving a buck, and cook my own food rather than buying frozen, saving a couple bucks per day.

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Was having another think about the "fairness" of the GST.

Really, you have quite a bit of control over how much tax you pay under a GST.

When I bought my Nissan, I paid an additional $800 GST to the Gumment by choosing an ST-R rather than a DX model. When I chose the latest TV, I gave them $50, instead of the $1,000 that I could have by choosing from the other end of the shop.

I can choose to cook a chicken, rather than buying a cooked one, saving a buck, and cook my own food rather than buying frozen, saving a couple bucks per day.


Good point! If you decide you want to 'live large' you pay more.
Understand if 'we' insist in exporting low end jobs, 'we' must pay to support those that (unfortunately) loose the opportunity to work.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I'm always open to rational opposing points of view.

Now I'm all for paying an idiot idiot's wages ..but all that are being devalued and idled aren't idiots. Those of distinction aren't that distinctive in the differences between themselves and those who are displaced.

We had good filters at one time in our society. We did have a good education system at one time. There was a reason why there was a certain demeanor (and even appearance in many cases) to an airline pilot or an FBI agent..naval commanders ..etc.. They were all filtered through a similar process. It allowed you a hierarchy of suitability for given positions where intelligence was in abundance for the job required. Cops ..civil servants ..lots of stuff all went to the best. Then it was pointed out that being the best wasn't required to do the job and that higher intelligence didn't make a good "whatever" ..just a smarter one.

If everyone was a Pablo or a Julian ..which one will be under Tempest's boot for the right to shine the former copy machine salesman's shoes ..and meanwhile pay for the privilege by mowing the lawn at the militia's main outpost??




Gary; Sometimes I find it hard to follow what you're getting at. Are you saying that Affirmative Action has dumbed America down?

 

[Pablo]

All said and done, I don't mind as a consumer paying a VAT (vs. an income tax). It's being the collection and handover guy part I don't like....I'll do it if it means my overall tax rate goes down or at least equates with the added labor....but the odds of that = 0%.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: Pablo


The only answer is to cut the spending. It's a pretty simple concept.


Cut the spending on stuff that doesn't matter, and use funds collected for certain things, for those things!

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Medicare pays 98% of every dollar that comes in, out for patient care.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1402162
Your number leaves out SEVERAL large factors. Including actually collecting the money. Throwing out that 98% is comparing apples and oranges when looking at private firms. It is invalid.
Quote:
I just checked my online benefits, every 2 weeks I pay $142 and change and my employer pays $320. Not including dental.

Do you actually believe that you will be paying less money with a government system? It will not be free so your comparison is not valid.
And do you really think the Gov. will not deny benefits to people? And when they do, where will you go?
Quote:
but feel society would fix a few issues if there was ONE health plan that everyone from BHO on down had to suffer.

Spreading the misery equally. Should be a great plan...

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: pbm
The goverment can do anything for much more money than it should cost. Its all part of being a bureaucracy. An example is my school district where there is a Superintendent, two Principals (grammer and middle school), two assistant Principals, a curriculum coordinator and a business administrator. All of this for approx. 700 kids. When I went to school almost all of these jobs were handled by a nun. We had nearly 40 kids to a classroom (vs. half that where I now live). Is it any wonder why we pay an average of nearly $10,000 a year property tax.
I work for the goverment so I know how GROSSLY INEFFICIENT the bureacracy can be.

PS: I belong to a union and you'd be surprised how I feel about them.

Yeah, but think about how many jobs they are creating!

Your employer has fully adopted the Gary Allan economic recovery plan.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
It will not be free so your comparison is not valid.


A 12 page thread about a tax and you say I think it'll be "free"? Nix! I was simply pointing out that for once there'll be an offset.

Quote:

And do you really think the Gov. will not deny benefits to people? And when they do, where will you go?

I hope they do! Rationing is going to have to happen. And cost controls. They're pretty generous/wide open now with most social programs so I don't see it being an issue-- Won't approach the oft-quoted "worst case scenarios" of Britain and heart patients, for example. In my ideal world you'd still want private party insurance that resembles "medigap" to cover the cushy stuff gov't won't spring for. That would keep the vultures happy. Where would you go? The, uh, doctor, and pay cash or private gap insurance.

Quote:

Spreading the misery equally. Should be a great plan...


The lack of a fix for my personal misery, which I just realized is costing me more than my mortgage payment, may be because enough others aren't sharing it! If we're all in this together it may compel action.

 

[Shannow]

eljefino,
your costs posted made me wonder.

While everyone is blaming Govt, GM, Chrysler, and the UAW, how has the US medical, and medical insurance system contributed to the problems ?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
eljefino,
your costs posted made me wonder.

While everyone is blaming Govt, GM, Chrysler, and the UAW, how has the US medical, and medical insurance system contributed to the problems ?

 

[oilyriser]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
If that's digestible, then if I make 5X what you do, I'm extracting 5X the vitality out of the environment ..realizing 5X the benefits ...etc..etc. I'll live 5X a better life than you. I'll command 5X the power and mobility you will.


You're continuing your beliefs that the rich take from the poor - "extracting" and so on. But you used a word that I agree with - environment. Wealth is not taken from society, it is taken from the natural environment, with *paid* help from people. Rich people pay salaries to people in society, and those people share some of the wealth they extract from the environment.

"Giving back" to society is already done when you hire someone and pay them a salary to extract resources for you, under your skilled instruction.

 

[Gary Allan]

Nope.

If in your acquisition of wealth you have not moved more people toward self actualization than you've displaced in the amassing of wealth, you have created nothing. You've just managed to put other people's money in your pocket.

There must be an expansion of utility for wealth to be "created". Now I'd say that those who lost their jobs to offshoring or outsourcing created more wealth than all who participated in any enterprise that Wall St. & Co. managed. Their jobs are bringing far more people toward self actualization than they are being driven away from it.

The only difference is that they aren't getting a cut in the process. Those who amass wealth are getting the domestic benefits of the "creation of wealth" ....elsewhere.

So, what are you bringing to the table that benefits the society in any terms of gain? Probably nothing, you're managing to collect on assured losses and expecting to NOT pay the shortfall in the offshore "creation of wealth" that is the furthering toward poverty HERE.

 

[Shannow]

Re drawing from the environment.

There's only one of them, and it's only so big.

So eventually, those skilled people paying their minions to extract worth from the environment will be left with nothing to pay them to extract.

Guess who cops it in the neck first ?

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, let's ponder medical professionals. Even my elitist worshiping Tempest will tell you that medical costs are crippling to a small business ..destroyed the auto manufacturers ...

(and many others will say) "consumes" too much of the GDP ..stifling growth and strangling us.

I never have seen anyone call the medical sector a "producer" that furthered the standard of living in the USA ..creating untold bounty for all. Yet it's members are considered producers.

Producers producing via consumption of available economic resources.

Sure flushes in my toilet

Edit: None of this AT ALL objects to the aforementioned (or anyone) amassing wealth. It is merely to straighten out the perception of just what impact those who profit and prosper in a "losing" scenario have upon "costs". They're disabling the society from paying its own way. Anything that makes them assume that they shouldn't be responsible for the upramp in costs ..is just silly self interest blindness. They're not helping ..their hurting the society. I guess that's something to be rewarded

(imagine another flush sound).