Various Virgin Oil Analysis...

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Aug 24, 2002

I sent in a bunch of oil samples from my bottles I had in my "back yard lab", so I could get some idea about which had moly in them and how much. Interesting enough, more seem to carry it than I expected to see, although many were not that much.

The other thing I found interesting also is that the M1 Supersyn oil contains moly. Now this sample was taken from the new bottle that I went out an bought the other day which I hadn't taken the time to test yet. So I went to the shop and pulled new and the old bottles down, both of which is the same exact visc. I tried the new bottle on the timken, and as to be expected, it plated up. So then I pulled the old one back down off the shelf, and it did exactly what it did the first time and didn't plate. Either I got a bad bottle of their SS, or their first batch had no moly in it. I suspect I just got into a bad batch as I would expect the formulation wouldn't be changed.

So, in light of this new evidence I found, I have to state in favor of M1's supersyn and dis-qualify my opinion as M1's new supersyn does indeed have a good barrier additive and holds up pretty much as the rest.

Now onto the virgin samples all of which were pulled directly from a new bottle.

M1 SuperSyn 10w30 api SL/CF

code:

Mo 88

ph 1020

zinc 1009

mag 20

cal 3343

silicon 1

Cst 9.81

Visc 30w

Amsoil 20w50 API SL/CH-4 and 0w30 API SJ/CF

code:

20w50 0w30

Mo 1 1

ph 1440 1395

zinc 1400 1573

mag 14 379

cal 4945 3123

silicon 0 0

Cst 18.63 11.28

Visc 50w 30w

Pennz Long Life 15w40 API CH-4/SJ
Pennz High Mileage 10w40 API SL/SG/SJ/SH
Pennz High Mileage 10w30 API SL

code:

15w40 10w40 10w30

Mo 153 50 63

ph 1707 980 1208

zinc 1651 967 1197

mag 15 9 15

cal 4700 1922 2475

silicon 1 0 1

Cst 14.97 14.94 12.03

Visc 40w 40w 30w

Valvoline Maxlife 10w40 API SL

code:

10w40

Mo 2

ph 1092

zinc 1086

mag 11

cal 2732

silicon 0

Cst 13.79

Visc 40w

Castrol GTX 10w30 API SL

code:

10w30

Mo 66

ph 1306

zinc 1281

mag 8

cal 2520

silicon 3

Cst 10.93

Visc 30w

Kendall 20w50 API SL

code:

20w50

Mo 54

ph 1076

zinc 1068

mag 15

cal 2051

silicon 0

Cst 18.64

Visc 50w

Shell Rotella T 15w40 API SJ/SH-4

code:

15w40

Mo 0

ph 1654

zinc 1587

mag 20

cal 3972

silicon 0

Cst 13.84

Visc 40w

Well, that's it for what I have.

[ August 25, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

Patman · Aug 25, 2002

By the way, it is scary to think that there was such a difference between one bottle of the SS to the next. Hopefully the first batch of SuperSyn we get in Canada isn't the bad stuff.

MolaKule · Aug 25, 2002

Bob,

Makes me wonder if tri-syn wasn't really in the SuperSyn bottle by mistake.

Either way, let's hope their QC is more consistent in the future.

Patman · Aug 25, 2002

Very interesting stuff! That Pennzoil 15w40 looks to be a great bargain oil, is anyone going
to try it out and see how it holds up? Quite a good amount of moly for a low cost oil!

I'm glad to hear that the new M1 SS contains moly, I'm even more interested in running it in
my wife's Honda now. Of course, I'll still stick with the Schaeffers in my Firebird though.

Patman · Aug 25, 2002

I think that Bob has said that the SJ TriSyn worked well on his timken before though, so it
probably wasn't that. I am beginning to wonder if maybe the first batch of SuperSyn was the
same formula as the SL TriSynth. I have a theory that maybe the SL TriSynth was a terrible
formula, that they took out so much zinc and phosphorus but didn't have any other barrier
protection to fall back on. Why else would Mobil 1 only have this particular formula on the
shelves for just a month? It still puzzles me why they would reformulate twice in such a short
time.....unless they found out that SL TriSynth was so terrible that it had to be quickly
changed. This was another reason I decided to skip running the SL Tri in my wife's car.

So maybe the first few batches of oil with the SuperSyn label on them were still actually
SL Tri.

[ August 26, 2002, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Aug 25, 2002

The tri synth work fine on the timken. The one bottle of supersyn I had did not at all. So I don't believe it was an older version as all of their oils held up until I got my hands on that one bottle. I really hate that as a lot of my opinion was based on that bottle and this is one of the main reasons that consitant testing is needed to assure and re assure that it wasn't something as simple as that being the problem in the first case. So, again, my appologies for opinionating a conclusion due to the one sample bottle of m1 supersyn I had.

On another note. I may not be back online for a bit as my computer got a lightening strike so I'm borrowing a friends of mine at present.

almost 30yrs and never have I let myself get caught like this so, anyway, now I have no choice but to rebuild it or buy another.

talk to ya later.
bob

dickwells · Aug 25, 2002

Hi Bob, Thanks for the report. I was just wondering if you could see a difference in color or clarity between the moly and non-moly SS? Regards, RW

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Aug 25, 2002

no difference. Certain moly's are clear and blend into the oil with no real effect on the color, unlike some of these pure moly additives which are black(or dark) in color.

TooSlick · Aug 25, 2002

If this test is run at room temperature, it is NOT a valid test of boundary lubrication properties. Zinc/phosphorus additives don't become fully effective until the oil reaches about 60C. You need to pre-heat the oil to 100C first - I think the results will be much different.

TooSlick

dragboat · Aug 25, 2002

I believe Mobil has reformulated the Supersyn recently. I know flash point is not everything but a couple of months ago I distinctly remember the flash point of the either 5w30 or 10/30 to be 425 F. Now, revision date on the Mobil site of August,2002 shows the oil to have a flash point of 455 F.I am having trouble getting the MSDS on the moly they use in number 48117-6 oil which is the 10/30 Supersyn. If anyone can post this,I would be greatfull

Chris A · Aug 25, 2002

Wow, I was really leaning towards running the Pennzoil Long Life in my '69 Vette, but now I think I'm sold.

Oh, wait, I see that it is the SJ formula, so I think that virgin sample is already out of date.

According to Johnny ( http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000258 ), the Zinc/Ph is 1200/1000 in the Long Life and according to Pennzoil's spec sheet, the visc is 15.5.

I guess I'm still not sure what I'm going to do for my future oil changes.

[ August 26, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Chris A ]

satterfi · Aug 26, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
no difference. Certain moly's are clear and blend into the oil with no real effect on the color, unlike some of these pure moly additives which are black(or dark) in color.

I the changed oil in my car 2 months ago and refilled it with 2qt Trisyn SJ and 2qt TriSyn SL. The SL was obviously darker in color, more like the Redline I use in one of my bikes.

Both oils were 15w50.

I've not seen the SS stuff yet.

satterfi · Aug 26, 2002

I thought SJ and SL 30w oils were limited to 1000ppm phosphorus.

The Pennzoil, Castrol and Amsoil 30w's that Bob posted above exceed that limit.

What's with that?

dragboat · Aug 26, 2002

I don't know? The Phillips 15w40 HD II with the SL rating has 1200 ppm of it and the SL 10/30 Mobil Dino has 869 ppm- Pennzoil 10/30 group II Synthetic 647 ppm

Patman,that Mobil Drive Clean has a trace of Moly!

[ August 26, 2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

David · Aug 27, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
If this test is run at room temperature, it is NOT a valid test of boundary lubrication properties. Zinc/phosphorus additives don't become fully effective until the oil reaches about 60C. You need to pre-heat the oil to 100C first - I think the results will be much different.

TooSlick

Yes, just like the oil in the oil pan. But bob DOES bring up the temp with the timkin machine before he tries to plate it. That's what I do myseft! When you are creating friction with the timkin then the oil heats up. Hope this helps you understand.
thanks, david

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Aug 27, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
If this test is run at room temperature, it is NOT a valid test of boundary lubrication properties. Zinc/phosphorus additives don't become fully effective until the oil reaches about 60C. You need to pre-heat the oil to 100C first - I think the results will be much different.

TooSlick

TooSlick,

A timken machine will start out at room temp like a car does. As friction occurs when the hydrodynamic properties is sheared, it heats up the surface. Again, like in an engine. To prove this point, I took a fresh bearing, put metal to metal with no lubrication and grinded them. The metal bearing, blued, and temp read close to 300deg's F. Now this is just to point out that this timken machine can get an oil up to and past engine temps. The Hydrodynamic properties on any oil on this machine play veryyyy little part on lubrication as it seperates it instantly. So, friction will occur instantly, and heat follows that instantly and if a barrier additive is in place, then it will start to plate up near instantly as well.

I hope that explains the concept on how this machine works, as it will heat an oil up to and past the point of what an engine will, and if it requires an oil to get near 300 degs to start effecting a barrier plating action, then that oil would not ever see my engine.

MolaKule · Aug 28, 2002

Bob,

Do you have any VOA's on Schaeffer's products? Since many of us will be using these oils in the near future, and doing UOA's on them, it would be vary useful.

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Aug 29, 2002

Yes, I had posted those numbers but if you have a 30day display on the top right of your screen, it is past that and you'd have to expand your days to like 100days to find it.

I brought it back to the top here is the direct link

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000003

widman · Aug 30, 2002

Very interesting... might be helpful to put the code date of the bottle when available to keep track in this changing world.
here are 10 virgin samples I've run in the past couple of months on lastest spec from 10 different brands here. First column is Delo. The others will be nameless to protect the guilty.
Magnesio
Calcio
3300 3220 2600 2440 670 2460 642 3560 2428 0
Fósforo
1360 1140 1180 1120 509 1060 1269 1153 723 1280
Zinc
1510 1250 1100 1200 443 1280 1267 1179 857 1321
Obviously several of these brands don't come close to what it is labeled.

dragboat · Aug 31, 2002

Does the 5th and the 9th brand use a moly?

I don't know your reasoning for not postng the brands but I think we would all benefit from knowing.

But it's your info to share or not to share,still do not see the reasoning as there is no liability or other punitive damages involved.Just numbers based on a analysis?

I have have spent some money lately for one,to know what I am getting,two,to let others see what the product contains to help make a educated decision on whether or not they like the make up of the oil VS another

I though that was what this site was all about?

Various Virgin Oil Analysis...

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