variations in reported pour points of a motor oil
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
What is the significance of pour point exactly? As long as you're using a grade that is appropriate for your operating conditions how exactly does pour point relate to operating performance in an engine?
It can be an indication of the oil's formulation. As an oil that contains a high level of PAO's or Esters is likely to have a very low pour point. There are 50 viscosity oils that pour at -45 degrees. They clearly are not group III oils.
What is the significance of pour point exactly? As long as you're using a grade that is appropriate for your operating conditions how exactly does pour point relate to operating performance in an engine?
It can be an indication of the oil's formulation. As an oil that contains a high level of PAO's or Esters is likely to have a very low pour point. There are 50 viscosity oils that pour at -45 degrees. They clearly are not group III oils.
Yes the red cap m1 15w50 to m1 0w40 "the mother of all oils" i thought till recently. My expy started on m1 5w30 in 1999 and burned about a quart per 700 miles on the hwy. Then i was smitten with 0w oils for start up protection and m1 0w40 put a spell on me! A near 30wt oil with noack of around 9. Well the expy burned it too at a rate of quart per 700 miles. I have burned at least 50 quarts of 0w40 new and old version.
Then i picked up some qsud 10w30 at autozone clearance since no one wants 10w30.
My expy drank only one sixth of a quart of 10w30 as compared to one quart. I will try m1 10w30 in a month for my upcoming hwy run and expect similar results to qsud 10w30.
I was starting to think that the weight 10w30 might be the mother of all oils
M1 10w30 pour point was only 1 degree centigrade different than m1 5w30 but better in almost every other category. 10W30 burns less so cleaner engine. Idle air control valve was clogged at 160k and egr ports were cleaned at 120k on the mostly hwy expy. It still runs like a champ though.
There are many brands of 10w30. But concentrating on synthetic 10w30 such as mobil 1 i was thinking that 5w30 should be obselete not the other way around. It woud be nice to see mrv ccs numbers for m1 5w30 and m1 10w30 from say -50c to -10c in a table. You could chose according to climate.
Ford definetly makes a buck by cleaning egr ports. I dont know how much of that could be avoided by using a high quality synthetic 10w30 instead of a 5w30.
Then i picked up some qsud 10w30 at autozone clearance since no one wants 10w30.
My expy drank only one sixth of a quart of 10w30 as compared to one quart. I will try m1 10w30 in a month for my upcoming hwy run and expect similar results to qsud 10w30.
I was starting to think that the weight 10w30 might be the mother of all oils
M1 10w30 pour point was only 1 degree centigrade different than m1 5w30 but better in almost every other category. 10W30 burns less so cleaner engine. Idle air control valve was clogged at 160k and egr ports were cleaned at 120k on the mostly hwy expy. It still runs like a champ though.
There are many brands of 10w30. But concentrating on synthetic 10w30 such as mobil 1 i was thinking that 5w30 should be obselete not the other way around. It woud be nice to see mrv ccs numbers for m1 5w30 and m1 10w30 from say -50c to -10c in a table. You could chose according to climate.
Ford definetly makes a buck by cleaning egr ports. I dont know how much of that could be avoided by using a high quality synthetic 10w30 instead of a 5w30.
Always take MSDS matters with a grain of salt. An MSDS is the last place I'd be checking the properties of a finished oil. None of them ever seem quite right.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
There are many brands of 10w30. But concentrating on synthetic 10w30 such as mobil 1 i was thinking that 5w30 should be obselete not the other way around. It woud be nice to see mrv ccs numbers for m1 5w30 and m1 10w30 from say -50c to -10c in a table. You could chose according to climate.
I can assure you that in this climate, a 5w-XX is not obsolete, and a 10w-XX is not an ideal replacement. It works, but at the values at which CCS and MRV testing is done, a 5w-XX always beats a 10w-XX. That's the nature of the testing and labeling requirements.
And you still can choose an oil viscosity by climate, without seeing a comparison of two specific oils on a chart. That is one of the purposes of SAE J300's "w" delineations.
There are many brands of 10w30. But concentrating on synthetic 10w30 such as mobil 1 i was thinking that 5w30 should be obselete not the other way around. It woud be nice to see mrv ccs numbers for m1 5w30 and m1 10w30 from say -50c to -10c in a table. You could chose according to climate.
I can assure you that in this climate, a 5w-XX is not obsolete, and a 10w-XX is not an ideal replacement. It works, but at the values at which CCS and MRV testing is done, a 5w-XX always beats a 10w-XX. That's the nature of the testing and labeling requirements.
And you still can choose an oil viscosity by climate, without seeing a comparison of two specific oils on a chart. That is one of the purposes of SAE J300's "w" delineations.
The question is how much better "cold properties" does the 5w30 have over a high quality synthetic 10w30. It better be atleast a tad bit better in cold because it appears the 10w30 is better overall. It becomes even more interesting if you consider not so great 5w30s with all the approvals and compare them to one high quality synthetic 10w30. You got chevy insisting on dexos etc so one can certainly assert ones will to pursue better oils.
SAE "w" is cool but i would like to see tables with mrv and ccs v. Temp for oils.
There must be some undergraduate research papers or ms thesis reporting such tables.
SAE "w" is cool but i would like to see tables with mrv and ccs v. Temp for oils.
There must be some undergraduate research papers or ms thesis reporting such tables.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
The question is how much better "cold properties" does the 5w30 have over a high quality synthetic 10w30. It better be atleast a tad bit better in cold because it appears the 10w30 is better overall. It becomes even more interesting if you consider not so great 5w30s with all the approvals and compare them to one high quality synthetic 10w30. You got chevy insisting on dexos etc so one can certainly assert ones will to pursue better oils.
SAE "w" is cool but i would like to see tables with mrv and ccs v. Temp for oils.
There must be some undergraduate research papers or ms thesis reporting such tables.
0W is (about) 5C better than 5W, which is (about) 5C better than 10W at CCS and MRV.
AND
If your super 10W30 oil happens to meet the CCS and MRV requirements of 5W...then you have no option but to label it as a 5W...
and the confusion is ???
The question is how much better "cold properties" does the 5w30 have over a high quality synthetic 10w30. It better be atleast a tad bit better in cold because it appears the 10w30 is better overall. It becomes even more interesting if you consider not so great 5w30s with all the approvals and compare them to one high quality synthetic 10w30. You got chevy insisting on dexos etc so one can certainly assert ones will to pursue better oils.
SAE "w" is cool but i would like to see tables with mrv and ccs v. Temp for oils.
There must be some undergraduate research papers or ms thesis reporting such tables.
0W is (about) 5C better than 5W, which is (about) 5C better than 10W at CCS and MRV.
AND
If your super 10W30 oil happens to meet the CCS and MRV requirements of 5W...then you have no option but to label it as a 5W...
and the confusion is ???
Thanks Shannow. And no research is required, neither graduate nor undergraduate. It's not as if these things are properties that need to be discovered, they are instead requirements that must be met. It's a standard first and foremost.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
The question is how much better "cold properties" does the 5w30 have over a high quality synthetic 10w30.
The SAE J300 posted below your post shows the limits. The conventional 5w30 must be more pumpable at the tested temperatures than the 10w30, or the labeling would have to change.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
SAE "w" is cool but i would like to see tables with mrv and ccs v. Temp for oils. There must be some undergraduate research papers or ms thesis reporting such tables.
Formulations, and the subsequent physical properties, change often enough that such a table would go quickly out of date. Generally speaking, an ILSAC 5w30 will have slightly better MRV and CCS numbers than an A3/B4 5w30 or an HDEO 5w30, but that's just a generalization. Choose what's appropriate for your climate and run it year round and there shouldn't be any concerns.
The question is how much better "cold properties" does the 5w30 have over a high quality synthetic 10w30.
The SAE J300 posted below your post shows the limits. The conventional 5w30 must be more pumpable at the tested temperatures than the 10w30, or the labeling would have to change.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
SAE "w" is cool but i would like to see tables with mrv and ccs v. Temp for oils. There must be some undergraduate research papers or ms thesis reporting such tables.
Formulations, and the subsequent physical properties, change often enough that such a table would go quickly out of date. Generally speaking, an ILSAC 5w30 will have slightly better MRV and CCS numbers than an A3/B4 5w30 or an HDEO 5w30, but that's just a generalization. Choose what's appropriate for your climate and run it year round and there shouldn't be any concerns.
research is different than reporting numbers but i should have used that word more carefully too !
The table and the standard does not quantify how bad 5w and 10w are at -40c.
As an example how does the mrv ccs at -40c of m1 10w30 compare with m1 5w30.
Compare with any off the shelf 5w30?
I would like such data to be available for all oils preferrably from oil companies themselves but if not, then surely somewhere someone else might be generating mrv ccs numbers.
The table and the standard does not quantify how bad 5w and 10w are at -40c.
As an example how does the mrv ccs at -40c of m1 10w30 compare with m1 5w30.
Compare with any off the shelf 5w30?
I would like such data to be available for all oils preferrably from oil companies themselves but if not, then surely somewhere someone else might be generating mrv ccs numbers.
CCS and MRV are not to be measured at -40 for 10w-XX and 5w-XX oils, as per SAE J300. They'd both fail, and the 10w-XX one worse. You'd have to ask a formulator what kind of numbers you might see by running MRV and CCS with inappropriate oil and temperature combinations, but they'd clearly be above the limits, or they'd not be 5w-XX or 10w-XX, but 0w-XX instead.
Generally speaking, though, you're not going to get it. As I mentioned, formulation changes and new products being rolled out and others discontinued makes things problematic. Beyond that, there's no incentive or sense behind testing a 10w-XX for CCS and MRV at -40, throwing the methodology out the window. When you live in a Saskatchewan winter, buy 0w-XX or 5w-XX if your vehicle is outside for extended periods. If you live in Florida, buy whatever floats your boat.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Yup more info is needed than that provided by the standard.
Why?
It's kind of like asking how a gasoline-only rated oil performs in a diesel engine and complaining that the test results aren't available.
Yup more info is needed than that provided by the standard.
Why?
It's kind of like asking how a gasoline-only rated oil performs in a diesel engine and complaining that the test results aren't available.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Not really kschachn.
M1 10w30 pour point -42 c
M1 5w30 pour point around -42c
I would like to know mrv ccs of say both oils at -40c.
OK, here we go with pour point again. If you live where the forecast temperatures are below zero F then you likely don't want a 10W oil regardless of the pour point. It isn't relevant in regards to what your requirement may be.
The answer to your second point is that it fails the test. If it didn't then it would be labeled as a 0W.
Not really kschachn.
M1 10w30 pour point -42 c
M1 5w30 pour point around -42c
I would like to know mrv ccs of say both oils at -40c.
OK, here we go with pour point again. If you live where the forecast temperatures are below zero F then you likely don't want a 10W oil regardless of the pour point. It isn't relevant in regards to what your requirement may be.
The answer to your second point is that it fails the test. If it didn't then it would be labeled as a 0W.
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Originally Posted By: merconvvv
The tables will help make better choices. Its not as simple as pass or fail. The standard for w rating does not provide a complete picture.
Yes, actually it IS as simple as a pass or fail. The values indicated in the table are the LIMITS. If you are above the limits, you FAIL.
Also, visc for CCS and MRV roughly doubles or halves for every 5C increment, so take your indicated values for CCS and MRV for your 10w30 and double them until you reach -40C and you'll have a rough idea as to what those values would be at that temperature.
The tables will help make better choices. Its not as simple as pass or fail. The standard for w rating does not provide a complete picture.
Yes, actually it IS as simple as a pass or fail. The values indicated in the table are the LIMITS. If you are above the limits, you FAIL.
Also, visc for CCS and MRV roughly doubles or halves for every 5C increment, so take your indicated values for CCS and MRV for your 10w30 and double them until you reach -40C and you'll have a rough idea as to what those values would be at that temperature.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
The tables will help make better choices. Its not as simple as pass or fail. The standard for w rating does not provide a complete picture.
What kind of a test is it then, if it isn't a pass or fail?
And exactly what part of the picture are you missing? You still haven't answered that question although you keep making the accusation.
The tables will help make better choices. Its not as simple as pass or fail. The standard for w rating does not provide a complete picture.
What kind of a test is it then, if it isn't a pass or fail?
And exactly what part of the picture are you missing? You still haven't answered that question although you keep making the accusation.
Why should i have to "guess" at mrv ccs values?
I am not making any "accusations".
Tests results can be provided as pass/fail or numerical scores can be given instead.
So what is the mrv ccs of both oils at -40c ?
If you dont know just say so !
I am not making any "accusations".
Tests results can be provided as pass/fail or numerical scores can be given instead.
So what is the mrv ccs of both oils at -40c ?
If you dont know just say so !
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