Vac tube vs. transistor amp. Thoughts?

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Plenty of experience with both.

Here is my take. A very high quality tube amp can sound smooth at modest levels. However, it's exceedingly difficult to create a very high output tube amp at a reasonable cost.

A high quality, high output solid state amp can sound fantastic at any output level within it's specifications.

I do not find tube amps to be better.

The reason people often claim they prefer tubes is the fact that the distortion is "even order harmonic distortion" . In other words, the distortion is the same note, but an octave or two octaves, or three octaves higher. With the vast majority of it being second order, or one octave higher. Very pleasant.



EDIT: It's interesting to note that software exists to mimic a tube amplifiers distortion, and therefore it's sound.



EDIT 2: A $15,000, 150 watt per channel amp. I've not heard one.







[Linked Image]
 
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.... The reason people often claim they prefer tubes is the fact that the distortion is "even order harmonic distortion".


Push pull amplifiers cancel even harmonic distortion - doesn't matter what the amplifying device is, tube or transistor.

A single ended amplifier doesn't get the advantage of this cancellation and can sound different.

There are a lot of ways to make an amplifier. I prefer vacuum tubes.
 
Carver was famous for building a solid state amp that was exact through its paces as a high end tube amp of the time. They measured them with the same source through a null modem and there was no measurable difference through the audio ranges. IIRC the Carver amp was 1/10th the cost of the tube amp. Been a few years, I need to google that test.
 
Originally Posted by Win
Quote
.... The reason people often claim they prefer tubes is the fact that the distortion is "even order harmonic distortion".


Push pull amplifiers cancel even harmonic distortion - doesn't matter what the amplifying device is, tube or transistor.

A single ended amplifier doesn't get the advantage of this cancellation and can sound different.

There are a lot of ways to make an amplifier. I prefer vacuum tubes.


Many folks prefer vinyl also. It is the "Warmth" same as a tube amp that they like. Not the "sterile" sounds of a CD or SS amp. That warmth in vinyl and tube amps is indeed noise. Buy and listen to what you like.
 
Originally Posted by sloinker
Carver was famous for building a solid state amp that was exact through its paces as a high end tube amp of the time. They measured them with the same source through a null modem and there was no measurable difference through the audio ranges. IIRC the Carver amp was 1/10th the cost of the tube amp. Been a few years, I need to google that test.



I seem to remember that test being a bit of a scam. The Carver did great in the test but the ones they sold were not as good. I had one that set me back ~$1000. Kept blowing a transistor or something internally and caused a bad buzz and had to send it back to Carver a couple times for repair. After the last time, sold it in its sealed up box on ebay for a good amount of money.
 
Originally Posted by Donald
Also at at certain age your hearing is not that good. Anything would be OK.

Sounds good.
I'll just wait around until I lose my hearing. Then it won't matter anymore.
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Both systems use inefficient loudspeakers (87dB) which I would not choose w/an 8w transistor amp. (The tube amp had 25w per ch. and more inputs.) I'd find an int. amp w/a little more wattage. SMSL SA-50/SA-36. Only one input and no headphone jack. Now...there's a Topping TP-22 used on Ebay for $62 B/O. Two inputs and great quality and sound. (I've owned two Topping's and a MUSE.) As far as speakers, a used set.... Paradigm, Mirage, PSB's, Energy. I had the opportunity to repair some Mirage FR-x Two's for a friend and I was MOST impressed w/their sound quality. (IMO, a better speaker than the Energy Ex-L 15/16 but the Energy's sometimes go very little $. ) New, I'd look @ Klipsch R-14M for $118 pr. on Amazon because they are VERY efficient. Not sure of the sound quality though. PSB Image B4's are superb sounding speakers and sound much bigger than their same size. For under a $100 used a steal. Good Luck w/your choice.
 
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by Win
Both are junk.

Class B, whether solid state or vacuum tube, is not Hi Fi, imo.


Everyone who has heard my Daystrom Heathkit AA-151 thought it was gorgeous sounding.

In the parlance of the day, class A/B Push-Pull was just called class B

a look under the hood:

[Linked Image]


I agree. I have the same amp and matching tuner..
 
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Originally Posted by sloinker
Originally Posted by Win
Quote
.... The reason people often claim they prefer tubes is the fact that the distortion is "even order harmonic distortion".


Push pull amplifiers cancel even harmonic distortion - doesn't matter what the amplifying device is, tube or transistor.

A single ended amplifier doesn't get the advantage of this cancellation and can sound different.

There are a lot of ways to make an amplifier. I prefer vacuum tubes.


Many folks prefer vinyl also. It is the "Warmth" same as a tube amp that they like. Not the "sterile" sounds of a CD or SS amp. That warmth in vinyl and tube amps is indeed noise. Buy and listen to what you like.


The ancient S/P digital format has massive unnatural noise signature and typically suffered from class B like offset due to the ladder DAC configuration.

If anyone has owned a tube preamp - you would know the tube sound is from the transformers NOT the tubes.

I find tube pre-amps less susceptible to RFI /EMI injection and they don't employ the timber killing feedback gain structure of op-amp configurations. I do think a Solid State preamp makes more sense in most cases.

This "warmth" talk is sometimes found with cheap valve circuits with limited bandwidth undersized transformer and non-linear though pleasing. modification of the frequency response due to high output impedance.

Add an isolation transformer to your line level signal output and enjoy the "tube" sound.
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The ability to enjoy the recording is paramount over any silly hardware arguments. I have head the bad and good of both.

I sold $30K systems to the well-to -do in the Boston area (Lexington) in the 80's and 90's on weekends.
 
Originally Posted by Lolvoguy
Recently my GF and I decided we want to upgrade our stereo system.
It's mainly connected to the home PC to spotify etc.
We also use it to watch movies etc.

I've been researching a couple of options. I like the look and appeal of a tube amp, but I've never owned one nor heard one.
Are they really worth the additional upkeep (replacing tubes every year or two) etc?

The two setups I'm considering are listed below.
Thanks for any info/advice!

Transistor setup

Tube amp setup


I looked up the tube specifications and there is no way one can get 25W per channel from this tube amp.

You would be lucky to get 10W per channel max and it's single ended output, not push-pull.
 
Thanks for the info gents.

I've decided on a NAD amp and a set of bookshelf speakers.
Which exact model amp and speakers is to be decided, but at least I know I should be happy with my purchase
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We went from super inexpensive int. amps to something fairly decent. Synergy is everything in audio. Now w/higher class of components you'll need better interconnects/ speaker wire etc. to bring out the best of the system. You may spend a few more $$$ and your mind in the process. (Audiophilism) I've been there and after 40+yrs of tinkering I've finally reached a place where I'm satisfied w/what I have in audio equipment. Good Luck w/your choices. Find a good dealer if possible that my let you addition in the home. I know what I'd look for and recommend but everyone has their own opinions and set of choices.
 
In the past I have not been a fan of NAD sound or build quality.
Noisey, textured greyish cast to the sound.

I haven't heard the Bjorn-Eric Edvardsen designed stuff.
RIP Eric.

It is supposed to be quite an uplift over previous stuff.
_______

The good integrated amps under a grand in the 80's and 90's

were Mission Cyrus 2, Creek 4040 S3 and Musical fidelity A1

everything else was just ... not good enough.

I will say some of the Nakamichi receivers were very listenable. But they are likely non functional today.

I would definitely avoid teac, onkyo and maybe even yamaha and any off brand chinese junk.

Check this out: Cambridge Audio Topaz SR20 receiver on sale at Music Direct.

https://www.musicdirect.com/receive...e4a7u4wIVkZ-fCh2o9AuzEAYYASABEgLf8PD_BwE
 
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by skyactiv
Using a valve amp to play compressed music is about as dumb as using a generator to power an electric chainsaw.

I do like that comparison!


Don't you always use a generator to power an electric chainsaw?

In Audio Gi-Go

So quality TT and TT preamp were absolutely required at the front of the chain.

Good preamps under 1500 bucks were almost impossible to find.

You need finest quality source material.
 
Quote
... Using a valve amp to play compressed music is about as dumb as using a generator to power an electric chainsaw. ...


Nonsense. Tubes don't have eyes - they don't care what signal you feed it as long as it is within the design limits and operating point of the device.

And what is this valve stuff? On this side of the Atlantic, afaik, they have been tubes since Lee de Forest stuck the third element in there to distinguish his device from the two element ( diode ) Fleming valve. They're still called tubes on this side of the Atlantic.

I don't keep a lot of tubes here at the office. The type 45 National Union Box is probably from the 40's. I am sure I have older examples out in my warehouse. The 247 is from the 20's; still works great.

edit: the 245 came out in the late 20's, this 247 is probably early 30's ...


[Linked Image]

.
 
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... I looked up the tube specifications and there is no way one can get 25W per channel from this tube amp.

You would be lucky to get 10W per channel max and it's single ended output, not push-pull.


Mola, I briefly played around with a pair of 6P1 in push pull and saw about 8 watts into an 8 ohm load at a bit less than 1% two tone SMPTE IMD. I just winged an operating point - might not have been the best. I can measure for THD, but usually do not bother with it. I would expect about 1 watt single ended at a reasonable distortion.

They are said to be the soviet analogue of 6AQ5/6005, but 6P1 has a 9 pin base. They are really cheap and plentiful, and probably a very good choice for a ten watt class push pull amp.

edit: can't recall if the 8 watt point was where the sine wave began to show signs of flattening ( 1 KHz test signal ), or I started to see cross over distortion - been several years since I played with them ...
 
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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Don't you always use a generator to power an electric chainsaw?

There was no electricity at the farm during my first few years of existence. I don't think my dad got a generator for camping until sometime in the 2000s.
wink.gif


I want to get a generator to recharge cordless power tools and make it even worse!
 
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