used AUTO-RX now have lifter clatterve
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I'll add one more success. 1990 GMC K2500, 5.7, 121K. Bought it used from a fellow who provided service records showing 3K OCI since new, bulk Formula Shell. It had a bit of dark varnish visible through the filler cap. I figured a ARx treatment wouldn't hurt, even though the engine was quiet and used no oil. About 300 miles into the cleaning phase I noticed the engine running "better". It picked up ~6% fuel mileage, and it no longer unlocks the torque converter climbing the grade to my house. It didn't do much for the varnish, but that has slowly been dissolving over the past 4 OCI's.
It certainly cleaned the ring pack as advertised.
Ed
It certainly cleaned the ring pack as advertised.
Ed
Not sure if I've been added to the positive count or not. My Saturn certainly showed positive results. In my past experience I have never found an additive that really worked - including MMO. Not that I had a bad experience but they mostly made no difference. I read a lot about bad additives with chlorine or PTFE that often had some bad side effects. Auto-rx was my choice because there were really no negatives to use it, at worst it might not work but at least it wouldn't do major damage (besides a lifter tick or something minor) To be honest I have heard of more negative results from using MMO.
Auto RX decreased the fuel in the oil on my moms car, and my car. My car is getting vastly better fuel mileage, and runs way better. That's all I care about.
Originally Posted By: westwind999
To be honest I have heard of more negative results from using MMO.
That's interesting, seems there's more negative about A-Rx just on the pages of this site. I guess it depends who you talk to and what you read. I think it would be safe to say there are more satisfied MMO users than A-Rx users, state by state, in the US, or worldwide for that matter.
To be honest I have heard of more negative results from using MMO.
That's interesting, seems there's more negative about A-Rx just on the pages of this site. I guess it depends who you talk to and what you read. I think it would be safe to say there are more satisfied MMO users than A-Rx users, state by state, in the US, or worldwide for that matter.
Since the day the website started Auto-RX has been on the board. Tony believed that it worked as advertised and he used it in all our vehicles. He cut open filters and checked them to make sure it was working as advertised. I continue to use Auto-RX. It will not preform miracles but it will do as advertised if the instructions are followed as written. Each of us have our own favorite products and driving styles.
To be fair: there may be equal numbers of satisfied AutoRx users out there to that of those MMOs.
@ demarpaint: MMO only has presence on continental NA, and not outside of this region (never heard of MMO in Asian countries, incl. Japan and S.Korea). So, I wouldn't jump into conclusion saying that there are satisfied MMO users worldwide (unless the user imported it from states, otherwise, nope).
@c3po: I'm a satisfied AutoRx users (have over 14+bottles imported and in-stock for immediate servicing of various different vehicles that I serviced). That being said, however, you will never see me endorsing AutoRx on this board here simply because I don't wanna add fuel into the already heated/biased debate (discussions on oil additives). I have also used other OTC additives such as MMOs and what-not (no PTFE-powdered additives regrettably) that are avail out in NA market but not satisfied with the outcome.
I refuse to post anything related to AutoRx discussions simply out of sheer respect towards other posters on BITOG.It's not like I've chickened out on the debate, just don't see the benefits of arguing.
Quest-TD
@ demarpaint: MMO only has presence on continental NA, and not outside of this region (never heard of MMO in Asian countries, incl. Japan and S.Korea). So, I wouldn't jump into conclusion saying that there are satisfied MMO users worldwide (unless the user imported it from states, otherwise, nope).
@c3po: I'm a satisfied AutoRx users (have over 14+bottles imported and in-stock for immediate servicing of various different vehicles that I serviced). That being said, however, you will never see me endorsing AutoRx on this board here simply because I don't wanna add fuel into the already heated/biased debate (discussions on oil additives). I have also used other OTC additives such as MMOs and what-not (no PTFE-powdered additives regrettably) that are avail out in NA market but not satisfied with the outcome.
I refuse to post anything related to AutoRx discussions simply out of sheer respect towards other posters on BITOG.It's not like I've chickened out on the debate, just don't see the benefits of arguing.
Quest-TD
Quest point well taken, a little exaggeration got the best of me. I think I should state then for the record that MMO has more satisfied customers in the Con US than A-Rx. I would venture to say by a tremendous margin. I wish it would have worked for me. I'll keep the flack I took as a result of it not working off the board. Honestly there is no point in arguing! BTW Happy New Year to you and your family!
A happy new year back to you too, demarpaint.
I'm always glad to have your presence on BITOG, even though at times we may disagree on each other.
Q.
I'm always glad to have your presence on BITOG, even though at times we may disagree on each other.
Q.
Originally Posted By: Quest
A happy new year back to you too, demarpaint.
I'm always glad to have your presence on BITOG, even though at times we may disagree on each other.
Q.
Same here!
A happy new year back to you too, demarpaint.
I'm always glad to have your presence on BITOG, even though at times we may disagree on each other.
Q.
Same here!
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: westwind999
To be honest I have heard of more negative results from using MMO.
That's interesting, seems there's more negative about A-Rx just on the pages of this site. I guess it depends who you talk to and what you read. I think it would be safe to say there are more satisfied MMO users than A-Rx users, state by state, in the US, or worldwide for that matter.
I haven't read every thread but I really don't see many factual negative results with Autorx besides a lifter tick or something. There's lots of people that think it's too expensive or that it didn't provide the positive results they had hoped for but nothing where there was a connection to a blown motor or similar. Maybe you could post a link for me (or PM). It is in the 'miracle in a bottle' category, anyone who believes they will end up with a brand new motor are hopelessly gullible.
Originally Posted By: westwind999
To be honest I have heard of more negative results from using MMO.
That's interesting, seems there's more negative about A-Rx just on the pages of this site. I guess it depends who you talk to and what you read. I think it would be safe to say there are more satisfied MMO users than A-Rx users, state by state, in the US, or worldwide for that matter.
I haven't read every thread but I really don't see many factual negative results with Autorx besides a lifter tick or something. There's lots of people that think it's too expensive or that it didn't provide the positive results they had hoped for but nothing where there was a connection to a blown motor or similar. Maybe you could post a link for me (or PM). It is in the 'miracle in a bottle' category, anyone who believes they will end up with a brand new motor are hopelessly gullible.
Originally Posted By: westwind999
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: westwind999
To be honest I have heard of more negative results from using MMO.
That's interesting, seems there's more negative about A-Rx just on the pages of this site. I guess it depends who you talk to and what you read. I think it would be safe to say there are more satisfied MMO users than A-Rx users, state by state, in the US, or worldwide for that matter.
I haven't read every thread but I really don't see many factual negative results with Autorx besides a lifter tick or something. There's lots of people that think it's too expensive or that it didn't provide the positive results they had hoped for but nothing where there was a connection to a blown motor or similar. Maybe you could post a link for me (or PM). It is in the 'miracle in a bottle' category, anyone who believes they will end up with a brand new motor are hopelessly gullible.
How about "more negative results from using MMO?" Search the www. MMO has a life of over 8 decades so there should be lots or cases of damaged engines and complaints, if they exist. As far as I known there are no blown motors associated with A-Rx? Just lots of complaints and bickering associated with A-Rx and a lot of unhappy users, just read here on Bitog, check the locked threads too. There's some happy people as well, run some % numbers, then do a side by side. It's there for the searching.
Honestly at this point it doesn't matter, A-Rx worked for you, you're happy with it, that's all that matters. If I start digging I'll be adding fuel to an already hot fire, I've gone through the pages, and searched the www, it backs up what I already know. Let potential users of MMO, Kreen, or A-Rx do their own homework, and after trying an engine cleaning product share with us their findings. The more data and testimony the better, and easier the decision of what to grab will be.
I learned in 2010 from this site that Kreen is awesome for someone looking to do a fast clean up, and it cleans varnish in short order.
I hope no one on this site believes in "Miracles In A Bottle", if so that is truly sad. How about a "Liquid Helper", oh wait that might be considered liquor, someone might drink it. LOL
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: westwind999
To be honest I have heard of more negative results from using MMO.
That's interesting, seems there's more negative about A-Rx just on the pages of this site. I guess it depends who you talk to and what you read. I think it would be safe to say there are more satisfied MMO users than A-Rx users, state by state, in the US, or worldwide for that matter.
I haven't read every thread but I really don't see many factual negative results with Autorx besides a lifter tick or something. There's lots of people that think it's too expensive or that it didn't provide the positive results they had hoped for but nothing where there was a connection to a blown motor or similar. Maybe you could post a link for me (or PM). It is in the 'miracle in a bottle' category, anyone who believes they will end up with a brand new motor are hopelessly gullible.
How about "more negative results from using MMO?" Search the www. MMO has a life of over 8 decades so there should be lots or cases of damaged engines and complaints, if they exist. As far as I known there are no blown motors associated with A-Rx? Just lots of complaints and bickering associated with A-Rx and a lot of unhappy users, just read here on Bitog, check the locked threads too. There's some happy people as well, run some % numbers, then do a side by side. It's there for the searching.
Honestly at this point it doesn't matter, A-Rx worked for you, you're happy with it, that's all that matters. If I start digging I'll be adding fuel to an already hot fire, I've gone through the pages, and searched the www, it backs up what I already know. Let potential users of MMO, Kreen, or A-Rx do their own homework, and after trying an engine cleaning product share with us their findings. The more data and testimony the better, and easier the decision of what to grab will be.
I learned in 2010 from this site that Kreen is awesome for someone looking to do a fast clean up, and it cleans varnish in short order.
I hope no one on this site believes in "Miracles In A Bottle", if so that is truly sad. How about a "Liquid Helper", oh wait that might be considered liquor, someone might drink it. LOL
How about some science about why MMO is good to put in the motor? It is Naptha, Minearl Spirits and Clorinated Hydrocarbons. Maybe OK in the gas but not the best thing for the oil. Maybe the cleaning is just from thinning the oil. Excessively thin oil will clean the engine but not provide sufficient lubrication.
I hear lots of recommendations of kerosene, ATF and other garbage that I would never add to the engine oil. Where's the science?
It worked for me, isn't good enough. Autorx is not kerosene or paint thinner, it's mostly lanolin.
I hear lots of recommendations of kerosene, ATF and other garbage that I would never add to the engine oil. Where's the science?
It worked for me, isn't good enough. Autorx is not kerosene or paint thinner, it's mostly lanolin.
Here's what's in MMO, and what it does. I borrowed this from another thread. MMO is quite good at reducing friction, and wear, check out their site for more info.
70% Light Aromatic Oil (Pale Oil)
- It is a Naphthenic Oil, so while it oxidizes faster than a Paraffinic oil, it does clean and dissolve sludge and carbon well and cleans up after itself from any oxidation. serves as base oil as well. [Naphthenic oils have more solvency and are more polar (they are attracted to metal more), but oxidize faster.
29% Mineral Spirits
- Cleans Varnish very well. General cleaner. Also acts as an antioxidant.
38 parts per million (ppm) Boron
- AW/EP agent, friction reducer, antioxidant
900 ppm Phosporous
- AW/EP agent
1/2% 1, 2 ortho-Dichlorobenzene
- EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer
1/4% 1, 4 para-Dichlorobenzene
- EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer
Oil of wintergreen - for the scent
- Not just for the cent, is also a cleaner. may aid lubricity.
Red Dye - for the color
- well this one just colors the stuff
I don't know much about the science of lanolin or the science of A-Rx, maybe you can expalin it to me. I do know when lanolin gets cold it is very hard to pour and I wouldn't want it in my oil during the winter. MMO added to oil has a few nice UOA reports on the board maybe you can look at them. It also aids in cold starts.
I wouldn't add Kerosene or ATF to my oil either so we agree there. In the end use whatever works for you, and let the members use info they gather here to make a wise decision for themselves.
70% Light Aromatic Oil (Pale Oil)
- It is a Naphthenic Oil, so while it oxidizes faster than a Paraffinic oil, it does clean and dissolve sludge and carbon well and cleans up after itself from any oxidation. serves as base oil as well. [Naphthenic oils have more solvency and are more polar (they are attracted to metal more), but oxidize faster.
29% Mineral Spirits
- Cleans Varnish very well. General cleaner. Also acts as an antioxidant.
38 parts per million (ppm) Boron
- AW/EP agent, friction reducer, antioxidant
900 ppm Phosporous
- AW/EP agent
1/2% 1, 2 ortho-Dichlorobenzene
- EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer
1/4% 1, 4 para-Dichlorobenzene
- EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer
Oil of wintergreen - for the scent
- Not just for the cent, is also a cleaner. may aid lubricity.
Red Dye - for the color
- well this one just colors the stuff
I don't know much about the science of lanolin or the science of A-Rx, maybe you can expalin it to me. I do know when lanolin gets cold it is very hard to pour and I wouldn't want it in my oil during the winter. MMO added to oil has a few nice UOA reports on the board maybe you can look at them. It also aids in cold starts.
I wouldn't add Kerosene or ATF to my oil either so we agree there. In the end use whatever works for you, and let the members use info they gather here to make a wise decision for themselves.
I have no real opinion about MMO. I have no doubt it's safe, 80 years of use an no apparent history of engines blowing up speaks to that. But there's a difference between "helps" and "doesn't hurt" - where on the continuum does MMO land?
The info listed by demarpaint indicates MMO is basically an oil thinner with some antiwear, friction modification, antioxidant, and cleaning ingredients.
All of those things are present in fully formulated lubes, so the question is does replacing the volume of oil with MMO really help in those regards? If thinning the oil is what you're after, would it make just as much sense to throw in a quart or two of 0W-20?
UOAs pretty much are all good nowadays unless there's an underlying problem in the engine or a serious mismatch between the engine's oil needs and the oil used (ie say someone ran a 5W-20 in an engine requiring a 40 weight) - so it's hard to say MMO (or AutoRX, or Lube Control, or ZMax, etc for that matter) made them "better" without some careful experiment control or a real database of results.
So, food for thought. MMO, used in oil, is basically a generic "performance" additive for oil. People throw it in, their cars run fine, and they're happy with it, especially considering the price. Some folks also use it for cleaning purposes, either in general because they think their car needs it or perhaps specifically to attempt to improve sticking rings, clogged passages, lifter issues, etc. In many cases the results in this application are hard to verify, but again it's cheap and the car runs the same or better so people tend to be satisfied.
Now look at AutoRX - it's essentially advertised as a product that will solve specific problems - oil consumption, leaks, etc. It clearly does what it's supposed to do (see sastified users, real expert opinion) but not in every application - there are limits to what it will do. So users tend to be after very specific results, and if they don't get them that failure combined with the relatively high price would lead to dissatisfaction - totally understandable yet not necessarily indicative of the product's value in general or to another user.
jeff
The info listed by demarpaint indicates MMO is basically an oil thinner with some antiwear, friction modification, antioxidant, and cleaning ingredients.
All of those things are present in fully formulated lubes, so the question is does replacing the volume of oil with MMO really help in those regards? If thinning the oil is what you're after, would it make just as much sense to throw in a quart or two of 0W-20?
UOAs pretty much are all good nowadays unless there's an underlying problem in the engine or a serious mismatch between the engine's oil needs and the oil used (ie say someone ran a 5W-20 in an engine requiring a 40 weight) - so it's hard to say MMO (or AutoRX, or Lube Control, or ZMax, etc for that matter) made them "better" without some careful experiment control or a real database of results.
So, food for thought. MMO, used in oil, is basically a generic "performance" additive for oil. People throw it in, their cars run fine, and they're happy with it, especially considering the price. Some folks also use it for cleaning purposes, either in general because they think their car needs it or perhaps specifically to attempt to improve sticking rings, clogged passages, lifter issues, etc. In many cases the results in this application are hard to verify, but again it's cheap and the car runs the same or better so people tend to be satisfied.
Now look at AutoRX - it's essentially advertised as a product that will solve specific problems - oil consumption, leaks, etc. It clearly does what it's supposed to do (see sastified users, real expert opinion) but not in every application - there are limits to what it will do. So users tend to be after very specific results, and if they don't get them that failure combined with the relatively high price would lead to dissatisfaction - totally understandable yet not necessarily indicative of the product's value in general or to another user.
jeff
Nice post greenjp- I think most people here are using MMO to clean an engine, or free lifters, and are seeing and hearing actual results. I don't think the majority of MMO users are adding it to improve their oil, although I'm sure there are a few people doing so. Then there are others that use it once in a while as a preventative measure, in which case proving results would be tough, if there is nothing wrong.
The fact that engines aren't blowing up I don't think is a reason to use a product, or stating that nothing happened so it is doing no harm certainly isn't a reason either, but it has been said many times. In fact I'm guilty of saying that on occasion too. I guess that statement does have some merit though. Because after 80+ years of existance if engines were blowing we'd know about it. I use it because I have seen what it does, through sight, sound, and with a compression gauge. There are people who have engines beyond repair, or in no need of cleaning, have no noise or compression issues, and for them it will do nothing. That doesn't make the product bad either, you can't fix what aint broke.
The fact that engines aren't blowing up I don't think is a reason to use a product, or stating that nothing happened so it is doing no harm certainly isn't a reason either, but it has been said many times. In fact I'm guilty of saying that on occasion too. I guess that statement does have some merit though. Because after 80+ years of existance if engines were blowing we'd know about it. I use it because I have seen what it does, through sight, sound, and with a compression gauge. There are people who have engines beyond repair, or in no need of cleaning, have no noise or compression issues, and for them it will do nothing. That doesn't make the product bad either, you can't fix what aint broke.
I found this comparison on a different site:
"The big diffence between ARX and MMO comes down to the individual components. Auto-Rx is comprised of ingredients that although are good cleaners in their own right have good to great lubrication properties on their own. MMo on the other hand has good cleaning properties, but I am not real sure about lubrication properties. If Naphenenic oils were so good a choice for a base oil, then why isn't used in your oil? Chlorinated hydrocarbons can show some great antifrictional properties, but tend to promote corrosion in the long haul. Volatile solvents such as mineral spirits or similar work to dissolve sludge like deposits and have some value in vapor degreasing under normal motor operating temperatures, which is fine for places that liquid oil flow can't reach. But are a negative with respect to lubrication where boundry lubrication is called for. These volatile solvents also quickly evaporate out of the system.
So on the one hand you have a product that is a relatively slow flush product, MMO. On the other hand you have a product designed to slowly clean over the life of an oil change interval, providing enhanced lubrication. "
I've read through some engine failure threads but there are always so many variables that it's tough to pin the additive on it - really for any of them. Maybe the motor was just going to blow up anyway. What was the condition before the MMO/ARX etc was added?
Anyway, that's why I'm mostly interested it what it's actually doing.
"The big diffence between ARX and MMO comes down to the individual components. Auto-Rx is comprised of ingredients that although are good cleaners in their own right have good to great lubrication properties on their own. MMo on the other hand has good cleaning properties, but I am not real sure about lubrication properties. If Naphenenic oils were so good a choice for a base oil, then why isn't used in your oil? Chlorinated hydrocarbons can show some great antifrictional properties, but tend to promote corrosion in the long haul. Volatile solvents such as mineral spirits or similar work to dissolve sludge like deposits and have some value in vapor degreasing under normal motor operating temperatures, which is fine for places that liquid oil flow can't reach. But are a negative with respect to lubrication where boundry lubrication is called for. These volatile solvents also quickly evaporate out of the system.
So on the one hand you have a product that is a relatively slow flush product, MMO. On the other hand you have a product designed to slowly clean over the life of an oil change interval, providing enhanced lubrication. "
I've read through some engine failure threads but there are always so many variables that it's tough to pin the additive on it - really for any of them. Maybe the motor was just going to blow up anyway. What was the condition before the MMO/ARX etc was added?
Anyway, that's why I'm mostly interested it what it's actually doing.
Here's what a well respected member here had to say. It addresses some of your comments. Visit the MMO site, MMO has a pretty good anti friction anti wear pack itself and when mixed with oil does a fine job protecting an engine as well as cleaning it. It guess it all boils down to which team you are rooting for. All I know is the bottle of A-Rx sitting in my unheated basement is pretty thick, and it's well above freezing there.
I haven't seen the engine failure threads, although if MMO was the root cause we'd have heard about it. I've been using it since the 70's if I thought it was causing harm in my engine I'd be the first person to stop using it. I keep my cars a very long time, and don't want to add something that is going to cause harm, trust me.
No disrespect intended by what you've posted sounds like something used in a soft sell of the competive product. A smart sales technique instead of flat out bashing.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Is this enough to form sufficient hydrochloric acid to do serious harm to an engine in the combustion chamber? Would the small amount of blowby gases laden with hydrochloric acid be enough to cause harm in the crankcase? Or are the acid neutralizers in a good motor oil enough to render this small amount harmless?
I don't think there are enough chlorine molecules to form an acid, and yes the calcium and other acid neutralizers would take care of what might be there.
The chlorine is used in the chemical process to cause reactions with the benzene to form the solvent.
As far as cutting fluids, a different chlorinated compound is used, and it is being phased out in lieu of Greener friction reducers and EP compounds.
I haven't seen the engine failure threads, although if MMO was the root cause we'd have heard about it. I've been using it since the 70's if I thought it was causing harm in my engine I'd be the first person to stop using it. I keep my cars a very long time, and don't want to add something that is going to cause harm, trust me.
No disrespect intended by what you've posted sounds like something used in a soft sell of the competive product. A smart sales technique instead of flat out bashing.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Is this enough to form sufficient hydrochloric acid to do serious harm to an engine in the combustion chamber? Would the small amount of blowby gases laden with hydrochloric acid be enough to cause harm in the crankcase? Or are the acid neutralizers in a good motor oil enough to render this small amount harmless?
I don't think there are enough chlorine molecules to form an acid, and yes the calcium and other acid neutralizers would take care of what might be there.
The chlorine is used in the chemical process to cause reactions with the benzene to form the solvent.
As far as cutting fluids, a different chlorinated compound is used, and it is being phased out in lieu of Greener friction reducers and EP compounds.
I'm really reluctant to use additives. For similar reasons that people don't like fram extra guard I'm reluctant to use MMO in the oil. Even though many don't have an actual problem doesn't make it the right thing to do. I guess if nothing else is working I might give it a try rather than an engine rebuild.
I think with any cleaner there is some potential that the material being remove may cause some unexpected problem, it's just the nature of cleaning. There's also the possibility of the cleaning not being effective and the problem still exists, it's the chance you take pouring magic in the engine, I've had good results with ARX so I guess I'll continue on that route. Might try MMO in the gas though.
I think with any cleaner there is some potential that the material being remove may cause some unexpected problem, it's just the nature of cleaning. There's also the possibility of the cleaning not being effective and the problem still exists, it's the chance you take pouring magic in the engine, I've had good results with ARX so I guess I'll continue on that route. Might try MMO in the gas though.
Originally Posted By: westwind999
I'm really reluctant to use additives. For similar reasons that people don't like fram extra guard I'm reluctant to use MMO in the oil. Even though many don't have an actual problem doesn't make it the right thing to do. I guess if nothing else is working I might give it a try rather than an engine rebuild.
I think with any cleaner there is some potential that the material being remove may cause some unexpected problem, it's just the nature of cleaning. There's also the possibility of the cleaning not being effective and the problem still exists, it's the chance you take pouring magic in the engine, I've had good results with ARX so I guess I'll continue on that route. Might try MMO in the gas though.
True. If a product worked for you continue using it. I've tried both and based my observations and opinions on having used both products. Many people base their opinions about products from second hand info or information they got via the www but w/o real world experience. There's nothing wrong with that for product selection, but to comment w/o actual experience doesn't do anyone any good.
I'm really reluctant to use additives. For similar reasons that people don't like fram extra guard I'm reluctant to use MMO in the oil. Even though many don't have an actual problem doesn't make it the right thing to do. I guess if nothing else is working I might give it a try rather than an engine rebuild.
I think with any cleaner there is some potential that the material being remove may cause some unexpected problem, it's just the nature of cleaning. There's also the possibility of the cleaning not being effective and the problem still exists, it's the chance you take pouring magic in the engine, I've had good results with ARX so I guess I'll continue on that route. Might try MMO in the gas though.
True. If a product worked for you continue using it. I've tried both and based my observations and opinions on having used both products. Many people base their opinions about products from second hand info or information they got via the www but w/o real world experience. There's nothing wrong with that for product selection, but to comment w/o actual experience doesn't do anyone any good.
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