US high school students are dumb as a rock

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Originally Posted By: MrRPM
They just focus on other things.


Like text-typing with their thumbs in constant contact mode, not getting anything done and absolutely no attention span!

Doesn't anyone think ahead?

This is like Crack on their brain. When this doesn't quite cut it anymore, what'll be the next "shorter" attention span addiction they'll be consumed in?

Plus, what will their kids be like being trained like that?
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archive...nts-do-not-know

I've had conversations with people who think the United States was founded in the 1900s.


I might be dumb, but I am not sure when the US was founded. I think it was 1776 (Declaration of Independence - author was Thomas Jefferson), but I am not 100% sure. It has been a long time since I was in high school.

I know George Washington was not the first President of the U.S.
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I think there were 12 before him. Some lasted a week, and others only few hours. G-Washington was the first official president of the newly formed United States Constitution.

I found this
http://www.cojoweb.com/first-president.html


I have to say, that I really don't care much abotu political history. I am more interested in science and cars.
 
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Originally Posted By: tpitcher
Originally Posted By: MrRPM
They just focus on other things.


Like text-typing with their thumbs in constant contact mode, not getting anything done and absolutely no attention span!

Doesn't anyone think ahead?

This is like Crack on their brain. When this doesn't quite cut it anymore, what'll be the next "shorter" attention span addiction they'll be consumed in?

Plus, what will their kids be like being trained like that?



I don't really see it as bad here as you seem to have it in your area. Have you ever texted before? If not then I can see where your coming from. Texting can be a valuable tool to communicate. Yes most of the time calling is 3x better to get information across but believe it or not texting is convenient even for more then just useless conversation. you need to try it to know. I use it to send someone an address or phone number that way they don't need to write it down if their busy. I can text multiple people with one message at the same time to inform them ill be late for something rather then calling them all separately. Think of it as Mobile E-mail. many people abuse texting and dull down its potential with useless [censored] but don't let them make you think its evil. Also if its not for you then that is fine, but there are no reason to think its the end of the next generation. Just like people who don't own guns thinks no one should rather then accepting what doesn't work for them might work for others. I hang out with alot of people in the 19-25 age range and phones usually are not a problem. Most people our age find it just as rude to text during a conversation or activity just as older people do, there's simply just rude people out there no matter the age.
 
I would still argue that on average, equal funding for students would bring up some underperforming school districts. I think we all agree that parents are a huge influence on how well kids do in school, but I haven't met anyone that has chosen their parents... So instead of further penalizing kids who's parents aren't interested in helping them, it makes sense to put them in a more equal learning environment, be it the school facilities or quality of teachers.
Education seem expensive until you start adding up the costs of policing, incarceration, and lost income for 100,000 high school drop outs, vs 100,000 high school graduates... I'm going to guess its in the order of 100's of millions per year... With a million new high school drop outs a year, it costs quite a bit!


Originally Posted By: javacontour
Is it smugness, or is it different outlooks on life?

We moved to a top performing school district because providing our children a quality education is a priority. We believe it opens many doors to our children.

I can believe that and value that without being smug.

What I wonder is why don't the folks who live in areas with the gyms as you describe, take a more active role in making education better.

I look at the school "reports cards" that are posted. When you look at a nearby district such as East St Louis, IL, it's one of the top spending/student districts in the state. Certainly more than my rural district.

But what are the outcomes?

The rural district where I grew up outscores ESL on everything other than qualifications of faculty and amount spent per student.

So for less money, with fewer teachers with advanced degrees and/or experience, the rural district out performs the district where money is funneled in by the truckload.

Maybe it's not how much is spent, but how much the community values education?

Again, no raises in teacher pay are going to address the parent problem.

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

An easy fix I see for the U.S. system have the state fund public education so every board gets the same amount of money per student state wide. Averaged out there is probably enough money for a solid education system in most states. Well to do boards would whine but they can still fundraise for the extras.


New Hampshire's system

When you get a smallish state with pockets of poverty and pockets of relative richness (seacoast), making one part pay for the other is, well, interesting.

I honestly think people in the top 5% of suburbia aren't content with "good schools", they have to rub it in the noses of others, like when they visit a poor school for sports and the poor kids have junkier facilities. Then in the car ride home Dad explains why the basketball bounces funny on their rotten floor.

Kind of like the "I have health insurance... and you don't, because of your life choices" smugness that I don't really understand.
 
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Originally Posted By: javacontour


The rural district where I grew up outscores ESL on everything other than qualifications of faculty and amount spent per student.

So for less money, with fewer teachers with advanced degrees and/or experience, the rural district out performs the district where money is funneled in by the truckload.

Maybe it's not how much is spent, but how much the community values education?

Again, no raises in teacher pay are going to address the parent problem.


I can give you a good idea why. I did my student teaching in a large and very small/rural district and sub every day in one or the other.

Its not about the value placed on ed by the small town folks as much as it is the value or trust placed in the teachers. The parents grew up attending schools in small districts. They known the type of teachers attracted to these districts despite the low pay.

They trust the judgement of those teachers when it comes to them identifying that Jonny is indeed a problem child in school and give the teachers leeway to deal with the problems in an effective appropriate manner. They don't second guess the teachers professional judgement though they certainly don't give the carte blanche either.

Most importantly what the parents don't do is scream about how their perfect angel couldn't do such a thing nor threaten lawsuits and teachers livelihood.

As for those that say the pay is good especially for an advanced degree that is true but there is something you are missing.

There are a lot of districts that won't hire a new teacher who has a masters because its cheaper to hire someone with a BA. However, the districts then turn around and demand a laundry list of certs on top of the BA before they will even look at your resume. The local district won't even look at you without a reading endorsement despite the fact that these endorsements are useless because they are teaching teachers to use "balanced literacy" methods... which is the same thing as whole language learning used in the 80s and 90s which has been shown to be an abysmal failure. They don't teach teachers to use phonics and in fact phonics is a dirty word in the ed enclave of reading specialization.

These endorsements can add one or two more semesters to a degree program depending on their complexity, class availability, and field experiences required. That's another $3 to 6 grand in tuition at the cheapest of state schools. Many districts are now looking for both reading and math endorsements. Now you're looking at 1.5 to 2 years more than just a BA. We're talking about enough coursework that in another field would be almost enough for a masters.

Then we get into the truly insane where we have districts looking for a BA with a reading and/or math endorsement and a special ed cert on top of it. Spec. Ed. minors are another year to 1.5 years of coursework. We now have someone with enough coursework that they should hold a masters but all they have is a BA with a string of endorsements.

And how much are these districts who have hiring qualifications that make a 4 year olds Christmas list to Santa look like a a brief grocery shopping list willing to pay?

33K starting around here.

I saw an ad last week seeking:
EL ED license with a middle school endorsement (5+ years of college for that)
reading endorsement with preference for both a reading and math endorsement (1.5 more years of college)
and... a special ed cert (1.5 more years for a strat 1 mild disability cert, 2 years if going for a strat 2 severe and profound cert)

That's about 7 years of coursework that you could possibly cram into 5.5.

The princely sum offered for this... 31.5k

And you'll be busting your hump playing the role of classroom teacher, providing spec ed services and having to implement the title 1 reading or math plan set forth by the title 1 teacher.

Sounds like a great deal eh?

7 years worth of credits costing around 35 to 40k.

Oh but wait they get the summer off... to set up lesson plans for next year, attend prof dev seminars AND take more college classes to maintain the number of CEUs they need to keep their license. And of course the district pays for those classes right... hahahah no chance.
 
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my wife works in homes sometimes where there are awkward circumstances.

One patient has a 20-something daughter who is completely sedentary. She has to move due to her Mom needing to be checked in to a facility so she can get more care (Government funded of course). The daughter truly believes she will be able to go live with her 'friend' who she knows online! She doesn't even know where they live!

My wife asked her how she was going to eat. Her reply: "they'll have food".

This poor girl grew up in a home where NO ONE WORKED. Ever. It seems like she will never really be able to care for herself, and I fear for the future when I see this type of parenting debacle.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
my wife works in homes sometimes where there are awkward circumstances.

One patient has a 20-something daughter who is completely sedentary. She has to move due to her Mom needing to be checked in to a facility so she can get more care (Government funded of course). The daughter truly believes she will be able to go live with her 'friend' who she knows online! She doesn't even know where they live!

My wife asked her how she was going to eat. Her reply: "they'll have food".

This poor girl grew up in a home where NO ONE WORKED. Ever. It seems like she will never really be able to care for herself, and I fear for the future when I see this type of parenting debacle.


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For $35-40K per year teaching kids you might as well just get a job as an administrative assistant working in an office without the stresses of a classroom and hyperactive brats.

That's a poverty wage considering all the experience the school board wants.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I would still argue that on average, equal funding for students would bring up some underperforming school districts. I think we all agree that parents are a huge influence on how well kids do in school, but I haven't met anyone that has chosen their parents... So instead of further penalizing kids who's parents aren't interested in helping them, it makes sense to put them in a more equal learning environment, be it the school facilities or quality of teachers.
Education seem expensive until you start adding up the costs of policing, incarceration, and lost income for 100,000 high school drop outs, vs 100,000 high school graduates... I'm going to guess its in the order of 100's of millions per year... With a million new high school drop outs a year, it costs quite a bit!



The Abbott districts in NJ has proven this incorrect.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
my wife works in homes sometimes where there are awkward circumstances.

One patient has a 20-something daughter who is completely sedentary. She has to move due to her Mom needing to be checked in to a facility so she can get more care (Government funded of course). The daughter truly believes she will be able to go live with her 'friend' who she knows online! She doesn't even know where they live!

My wife asked her how she was going to eat. Her reply: "they'll have food".

This poor girl grew up in a home where NO ONE WORKED. Ever. It seems like she will never really be able to care for herself, and I fear for the future when I see this type of parenting debacle.


Omg. That really is brutal.
And not like 13 years old, but 20 something?
Sad.
 
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Again, while we obviously don't want to throw money at a broken system, taking money out of it isn't the solution either.


Really, how does the public ever get the attention of a bureacracy and express dissatisfaction with results? Cutting off the bucks is the best way I'm aware of.

Taking money out may not be the solution per se, but is probably the best path to an ultimate solution.

It will happen sooner or later, anyway. As a nation, we can't borrow money forever, afaik.

Fair points, well made.

The issue with education in particular is that a lot of the bureaucratic problems result from policy set by the very bodies that allocate the funds. To a large extent, pulling money out of education would amount to leaving someone out in the cold with no clothes and then beating then when they shiver.
 
Finland has an interesting approach.

I don't know what the answer is. I haven't read much on the issue.

As far as government's role, it depends. These are tough problems to solve. More local control etc.

I don't have an issue with the average teacher's salary necessarily. I don't like tenure. Our culture is also a big part of the problem.

I guess we will all be in for a rude awakening at some point. The baby boomers really did a nice job of leaving my generation with massive problems.
 
Originally Posted By: Torino
The real scary aspect is that they now or soon will be able to--vote. John--Las Vegas


Many are waking up to the simple fact that they game is rigged. Not in our favor.
 
OK, so a teacher makes 35k a year (9 months in class). Let use that number moving forward for the sake of simplicity.
A person gets a job as a teacher at the age of 30, making 35k a year. That teacher will be eligible to retire at age 50, after 20 years of service (15 years in class). If that teacher, now retired lives to 80, about the average life expectancy, then that person will effectively be paid 50 years of salary for 20 years of service(15 years in class).

(20+30)$35,000=$1,750,000 is what the taxpayer is on the hook for.
$1,750,000/20years=$87500 per year of service($116,000 per year of class)
The above does not take into account many variables such as raises, health care benefits or the ability to hold another teaching job after retirement from the first etc.

If $87,500 per year of service ($116,000 per year of class) is not enough for you then

It maybe different where you live with regard to years on the job, retirement age etc. But you get the general idea. Now if you could keep that teacher around longer, pay them more and defer the need to hire a replacement it would ultimately be a win/win for everyone.

My solutions:

1. Abolish the Department of Education, a terribly inefficient behemoth even by government standards. Give that money to the states based on student performance to pay for public or private schools.

2. Let parents choose which school to send their kids to, public or private, state pays. States are required to reimburse schools based on students academic performance.

3. Public school Teachers are not eligible to retire with full benefits before the age of 65, after 20 years of service. If you become a teacher at age 60, great, but you only get 25% pension if you retire at 65.
Starting salary and all other benefits remain the same with no cap on top salary. Pay rate increases determined by student performance. We would have better, more experienced teachers making a higher salary with less cost for the taxpayer since your getting value for all of those years of compensation. You could have a great 60 year old teacher making as much Department of Education bureaucrat in Washington, imagine that!

4. Parents, well you always derelicts who expect others to take care of their occupier spawn. But you also have many good parents who are frustrated and hindered by the current system. And at least getting them involved in school selection is start.

5. Union membership is optional. The NEA doesn't exist for the betterment of students, and that's what this about correct? If you want belong to one well that's fine but your salary and befits have already been established, see #3. Not automatic payroll deductions either you want to join, you stoke the check.

6. Since my plan is performance driven and the temptation to falsify testing scores will be great, it needs to be felony.

7. The students. Well as a teacher/administrator you’re going to have great ones, good ones and occupiers. That’s just the way of world, if you don’t like, don’t become an educator.


Not perfect by any means but it is without a doubt better thane the failing model we have now. It reduces government waste, reduces the influence of corrupt self serving unions, increases teacher pay, rewards great teachers and keeps them on the job longer. It weeds out the under performing teachers as well, what administrator wants keep idiot teacher who affects everybody else’s pay.
In world education rankings our system is the equivalent of the USPS/DMV. An education system that performance based is the only solution.



Edit: Sorry for the long post and poor grammar but I was on a roll and went to public schools
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
my wife works in homes sometimes where there are awkward circumstances.

One patient has a 20-something daughter who is completely sedentary. She has to move due to her Mom needing to be checked in to a facility so she can get more care (Government funded of course). The daughter truly believes she will be able to go live with her 'friend' who she knows online! She doesn't even know where they live!

My wife asked her how she was going to eat. Her reply: "they'll have food".

This poor girl grew up in a home where NO ONE WORKED. Ever. It seems like she will never really be able to care for herself, and I fear for the future when I see this type of parenting debacle.


People like this are postedr children for sterilization!
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
No surprise, the average person is a moron and half are below average.
Well said!
 
What do we NEED to teach kids to succeed in a world that will probably change more than we can conceive?

The best teachers I had at school did not stick (strictly) to the curriculum. They talked about life, and brought the subject matter
TO LIFE!
However, in those days, often the teacher HAD a life before taking up teaching.
Our math teacher was a navigator in the RAF during WWII, he was very good at explaining the importance of Trigonometry.
I still remember 'Curse Adolph Hitler' the mnemonic for 'Cosine = Adjacent over Hypotenuse'
or 'Spitfires Over Halgarland'
Sine = opposite over Hypotenuse.
 
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