Universal (specs) ATF Discussion - Mola etc

[tensecondz1]

I am looking to get some input from the experts such as Mola -

From all of my reading I understand that until the last few years Amsoil multivehicle ATF was one of the few fluids that claimed to meet multiple specs. I am curious as to how one fluid can be the "jack of all trades"

Now with Mobil rolling out its revised Mobil 1 ATF that looks alot like the Amsoil product I am very curious as to how one fluid can properly meet various specs such as ATF + 3 Mercon & Mercon V

I was under the impression that the fluid specs each had slightly different coefficients of friction .... If not why would you have lubegard red black etc.. Nissanmatic D J K etc.. You also see examples of very poor performance such as using Dex III when ATF + 3 is called for etc...

I continually hear good things about the Amsoil ATF but I have used Mobil 1 in my transmissions because I felt a dedicated fluid would make no compromises.

Can the resident experts explain to me how its possible to design a Universal fluid that does not compromise performance?

Thanks!

 

[MolaKule]

This is a good question and has been discussed in many threads before, but I can give you some main points.

Please read the following thread first

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000315

and then my comments below.

First, UATF's are not really universal in that they do not cover Ford Type F fluids and some of the new fluids such a Ford SP and DexronVI. "Universal" usually refers to a 7.0 cSt ATF fluid that will cover a number of highly friction modified (HFM) ATF specifications.

Ford Type F, often used in racing applications is not friction modified beause you want crisp shifts with no lock-up delays. Some of the later specific fluids have low visosities on the order of 5.0 to 6.0 cSt for the same reason that many automakers are specifying 5W20's.

A universal ATF is a highly friction modified fluid that contains a friction modifcation (additive) package that purports to span the range of friction modifiers needed for those transmission specs to be covered.

[The ATF specification, BTW, doesn't not declare or require a specific base oil or base oil combination to be used.]

These specialized friction modifiers (not to be confused with friction reducers) are usually chemical compounds of complex amines that set the dynamic coefficient of friction for the range of clutch materials and cluch plates used in that series of transmissions.

While many claim that their UATF covers ATF+4 and Honda Z1 specifications, I am skeptical because of the additive makeup of the Z1 and ATF+4 fluids.

 

[tensecondz1]

Thanks for the response Mola ...

I still dont see a clear cut answer on using a dedicated fluid vs a universal type. Based on your formulations IE You say not to use your Dex III in Mercon V applications, you believe in dedicated formulations. I follow your line of thinking but now the new Mobil 1 ATF intrigues me because with the resources and reputation of XOM, I cant see them not throughly testing something.

It seems we spend alot of time on this site talking about motor oil when just about any SL SM will do in 95% of applications. I am always much more interested in Auto transmission fluids / maintenance because the failure rate is so much higher than an engine, and very few people seem to be able to rebuild them properly.

As a side note, I didn't notice your Honda Z1 fluid on your website. Is it still available?

 

[reyjay1]

I personally will not use the new reformulated M1 ATf because of th new spec, but that is in a transmission that has everywhere you look n the owners manual to aftermarket service manuals warnings that say only use Mercon rated ATf, Dual use and Mercon V ATF not allowed.
It is a shame bacause M1 old formula was a good thing for this transmission (4R100).
However if you look at the actual spec numbers you will see that the Mercon V spev fits entirely within the Mercon /DexIII spec, so you can see how that is dual rated at least. It just so happens the materials used in the Mercon V's to achieve the numbers are often incompatible with the binder in the clutch packs of this transmission, and over time will lead to premature failure.
It is funny a great many dealers still do not even know this.

 

[unDummy]

What materials in MerconV are incompatible to what binders in the clutch packs?

Lets not continue to spread hearsay with actually naming the incompatible components!

 

[reyjay1]

I don't know the materials, but all you have to do is ask the Ford engineers on the transmission and they emphatically will tell you not use dual use fluids or mercon V in certain Ford transmissions. This is not hearsy. Call the Ford hotline yourself.
This has been thouroughly discussed on several Ford truck message boards. This has been in all new owners manuals with the 4R100 transmission since at least 2001.

 

[bmwtechguy]

I was at the local Ford dealership recently, and they had some Motorcraft dual rated MERCON/MERCON V fluid for sale behind the counter. The only other fluid was some MERCON SP for the newer big transmissions in the diesels, etc. Go figure!

 

[MaximaGuy]

In the Bay Area there is not one store that carries non-syn Mobil ATFs.

Now I called one of their distributors looking for quotes for Mobil MV ATF (syn blend) and Mobil Mercon V (syn blend) and was shocked at the prices -- $50 for Mobil MV ATF and $45 for Mobil Mercon V for a 12 quart case.

Are blends this expensive or am I getting ripped off?

 

[TomJones76]

I don't know what Mobil Mercon V goes for, and I'm sure it's good stuff, but quick googling showed that a government bid for Citgo brand Mercon V in October 2003 got quoted at $20.40 per 12 quart case.
While you WON'T qualify for that price due to volume issues, it does imply that you can go below $45 at least for certain brands.

 

[TomJones76]

Of course, if you really want a cheap ATF, you can go here:

http://www.synlube.com/prod02.htm

Low, low price of $26 per quart. Claims to work in Mervon V applications!

 

[Colt]

quote:

---

Low, low price of $26 per quart. Claims to work in Mervon V applications

---

That's around $400 for my '05 Explorer.
I'm happy with the Amsoil ATF change I gave her for 1/3 the price.

 

[porcupine73]

Yes, but that $26/quart includes free shipping.

 

[MolaKule]

And you get the extra suspended carbon (graphite) particles for free.

No pun intended, but I "shudder" at the thought of using carbon in an automatic transmission.