I believe strongly in personal responsibility, so IMHO the demise or success of any company, union or not, depends first and foremost on the competency at the highest level. So unions aren't responsible for the demise of the Big 3, any more than they are responsible for Ford's current success.
Union Auto Workers (UAW). Are they the problem?
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The union (management's) first job is to reinforce the relevance of the union, and that the dues getting sucked out of everyone's check are going somewhere. Score a six year contract, they don't sit idle for six years, they start arguing that boom boxes should be allowed on the work floor.
UAW enrollment is a tiny percentage of its heydey, but the organization has all these assets and suits it has to maintain from a smaller base-- just like GM, Ford etc have to pay retirees from their smaller market share.
I wonder how many UAW employees get mad and quit, if it's proportional to the job market as a whole. If turnover is low, GM doesn't really feel a need to make conditions better, and a "gruntled" UAW member contributes just as much as a disgruntled one.
UAW enrollment is a tiny percentage of its heydey, but the organization has all these assets and suits it has to maintain from a smaller base-- just like GM, Ford etc have to pay retirees from their smaller market share.
I wonder how many UAW employees get mad and quit, if it's proportional to the job market as a whole. If turnover is low, GM doesn't really feel a need to make conditions better, and a "gruntled" UAW member contributes just as much as a disgruntled one.
No,
Its the former Ivory Tower Execs that AGREED to the UAW demands in the first place, as well as the bean counter mentality of cutting corners at every turn.
Bottom line you have no where to look in the end but the EXECUTIVE MANAGEMENT, which in reality brought down the Big Three.
Its the former Ivory Tower Execs that AGREED to the UAW demands in the first place, as well as the bean counter mentality of cutting corners at every turn.
Bottom line you have no where to look in the end but the EXECUTIVE MANAGEMENT, which in reality brought down the Big Three.
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Its the former Ivory Tower Execs that AGREED to the UAW demands in the first place, as well as the bean counter mentality of cutting corners at every turn.
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10-4. Taking apart union-built cars at 150k miles the torque on the fasteners is uniform and things look exactly like you'd find pictures of in the FSM. Stuff like body panel gaps have also met my stringent standards.
Cars blow up because of cheap gaskets failing, or a transmission calibrated to shred itself for smooth shifts, or because fewer layers of galvanization and paint were spec'd for the floor pans, which rust out. I haven't found any beer cans in my doors or other exaggerated legends.
Its the former Ivory Tower Execs that AGREED to the UAW demands in the first place, as well as the bean counter mentality of cutting corners at every turn.
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10-4. Taking apart union-built cars at 150k miles the torque on the fasteners is uniform and things look exactly like you'd find pictures of in the FSM. Stuff like body panel gaps have also met my stringent standards.
Cars blow up because of cheap gaskets failing, or a transmission calibrated to shred itself for smooth shifts, or because fewer layers of galvanization and paint were spec'd for the floor pans, which rust out. I haven't found any beer cans in my doors or other exaggerated legends.
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Production workers under the old wage structure get about 26-28 dollars an hour and with pension and benefits ,yes, there true wage is much more than 75.00 an hour.
My point was that the $75/hour was referred to as "getting".. while it is, for various reasons.. "costs associated with and not assigned to the individual worker" in regard to the UAW worker ..
..while the $22/hour was probably more indicative of an hourly wage that in NO WAY reflects total costs of the employee to the company.
Regardless of the apparent and alleged (even if genuine) non-bias ..there's bias that is invisible to them.
Production workers under the old wage structure get about 26-28 dollars an hour and with pension and benefits ,yes, there true wage is much more than 75.00 an hour.
My point was that the $75/hour was referred to as "getting".. while it is, for various reasons.. "costs associated with and not assigned to the individual worker" in regard to the UAW worker ..
..while the $22/hour was probably more indicative of an hourly wage that in NO WAY reflects total costs of the employee to the company.
Regardless of the apparent and alleged (even if genuine) non-bias ..there's bias that is invisible to them.
Originally Posted By: PeteTheFarmer
I believe strongly in personal responsibility, so IMHO the demise or success of any company, union or not, depends first and foremost on the competency at the highest level. So unions aren't responsible for the demise of the Big 3, any more than they are responsible for Ford's current success.
As a big Ford supporter, Ford's major successes right now come from the fact they started making cars like the Fusion in Mexico. Why is the car made in Mexico?....Well, now that I think about it, you are right. If it weren't for the union, Ford wouldn't have made such a successful move.
EDIT: And for the record, no one is entitled to retirement. If you want to retire someday, save like the rest of us. I put 15% back of every paycheck and control my own retirement. You won't find me complaining when some company goes bankrupt and can't fund a pension anymore.
I believe strongly in personal responsibility, so IMHO the demise or success of any company, union or not, depends first and foremost on the competency at the highest level. So unions aren't responsible for the demise of the Big 3, any more than they are responsible for Ford's current success.
As a big Ford supporter, Ford's major successes right now come from the fact they started making cars like the Fusion in Mexico. Why is the car made in Mexico?....Well, now that I think about it, you are right. If it weren't for the union, Ford wouldn't have made such a successful move.
EDIT: And for the record, no one is entitled to retirement. If you want to retire someday, save like the rest of us. I put 15% back of every paycheck and control my own retirement. You won't find me complaining when some company goes bankrupt and can't fund a pension anymore.
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So ..that one move ...of all the actions that allowed them the maneuvering and lack of vulnerability that the others fell prey to ..is all hinged on that ONE decision?
Amazing. Sorta like flicking one wall switch and ...behold!! Let there be light!!
The Fusion from Mexico saved Ford.
Amazing. Sorta like flicking one wall switch and ...behold!! Let there be light!!
The Fusion from Mexico saved Ford.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So ..that one move ...of all the actions that allowed them the maneuvering and lack of vulnerability that the others fell prey to ..is all hinged on that ONE decision?
Amazing. Sorta like flicking one wall switch and ...behold!! Let there be light!!
The Fusion from Mexico saved Ford.
That was one example but you'd be naive to say that isn't a huge, if not biggest, reason Ford is doing so well right now. That car, along with avoiding bailout money, raised Ford's quality reputation and proved it could produce a better car than Honda and Toyota. The rest came from those initials doors that it opened.
So ..that one move ...of all the actions that allowed them the maneuvering and lack of vulnerability that the others fell prey to ..is all hinged on that ONE decision?
Amazing. Sorta like flicking one wall switch and ...behold!! Let there be light!!
The Fusion from Mexico saved Ford.
That was one example but you'd be naive to say that isn't a huge, if not biggest, reason Ford is doing so well right now. That car, along with avoiding bailout money, raised Ford's quality reputation and proved it could produce a better car than Honda and Toyota. The rest came from those initials doors that it opened.
Well where did they engineer the Fusion? who did the styling? What normally made compromises weren't made? When I'm in the showroom and going for a test drive I care less about who made the thing.
Yeah, maybe when they were finalizing the design they said Option B is a labor intensive process, but we have a cure for that.
Yeah, maybe when they were finalizing the design they said Option B is a labor intensive process, but we have a cure for that.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So ..that one move ...of all the actions that allowed them the maneuvering and lack of vulnerability that the others fell prey to ..is all hinged on that ONE decision?
Amazing. Sorta like flicking one wall switch and ...behold!! Let there be light!!
The Fusion from Mexico saved Ford.
That was one example but you'd be naive to say that isn't a huge, if not biggest, reason Ford is doing so well right now. That car, along with avoiding bailout money, raised Ford's quality reputation and proved it could produce a better car than Honda and Toyota. The rest came from those initials doors that it opened.
Building cars in Mexico wasn't the salvation of GM.
As for retirement, people are entitled to whatever they can get in bona fide contract negotiation. That's true for executives, athletes, entertainers, union workers, and anyone else working under written contract.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So ..that one move ...of all the actions that allowed them the maneuvering and lack of vulnerability that the others fell prey to ..is all hinged on that ONE decision?
Amazing. Sorta like flicking one wall switch and ...behold!! Let there be light!!
The Fusion from Mexico saved Ford.
That was one example but you'd be naive to say that isn't a huge, if not biggest, reason Ford is doing so well right now. That car, along with avoiding bailout money, raised Ford's quality reputation and proved it could produce a better car than Honda and Toyota. The rest came from those initials doors that it opened.
Building cars in Mexico wasn't the salvation of GM.
As for retirement, people are entitled to whatever they can get in bona fide contract negotiation. That's true for executives, athletes, entertainers, union workers, and anyone else working under written contract.
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So, not yet having the Fusion made in Mexico that allowed them the major coup of avoiding bailout money was the shear genius of a future decision?
Other manufacturers have cars assembled in Mexico ..why aren't they reaping the benefits of choosing that location?
Now if you're saying that the Fusion is a great car ..that's another story.
Other manufacturers have cars assembled in Mexico ..why aren't they reaping the benefits of choosing that location?
Now if you're saying that the Fusion is a great car ..that's another story.
Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Well where did they engineer the Fusion?
I'll jump in and say that Detroit is moving its engineering offshore as well, as much as they can, and whenever it makes sense. I can only hope to hold on to my job until I retire 12 years from now.
Well where did they engineer the Fusion?
I'll jump in and say that Detroit is moving its engineering offshore as well, as much as they can, and whenever it makes sense. I can only hope to hold on to my job until I retire 12 years from now.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So, not yet having the Fusion made in Mexico that allowed them the major coup of avoiding bailout money was the shear genius of a future decision?
Other manufacturers have cars assembled in Mexico ..why aren't they reaping the benefits of choosing that location?
Now if you're saying that the Fusion is a great car ..that's another story.
The fusion is a great car because of the non-union people involved from the engineers down to the laborers and MOST importantly the process improvement folks.
The point wasn't the Fusion is great because it is assembled in Mexico. The point was the UAW can't really take credit for Ford's current success because they played a minuscule part of it and if the UAW had its way, Ford would be making LESS profits.
So, not yet having the Fusion made in Mexico that allowed them the major coup of avoiding bailout money was the shear genius of a future decision?
Other manufacturers have cars assembled in Mexico ..why aren't they reaping the benefits of choosing that location?
Now if you're saying that the Fusion is a great car ..that's another story.
The fusion is a great car because of the non-union people involved from the engineers down to the laborers and MOST importantly the process improvement folks.
The point wasn't the Fusion is great because it is assembled in Mexico. The point was the UAW can't really take credit for Ford's current success because they played a minuscule part of it and if the UAW had its way, Ford would be making LESS profits.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
As many of you know I am a GM production manager and deal with the UAW daily. I have a lot to say about this topic both pro and con. I'm gonna leave my response today very short. But I will comment in more detail at a later date after I see all the posts that I am sure are coming.
Judging from your location, I'm guessing you work at the Arlington plant?
Also, when it comes to unions and hiring/firing, do you have final say or you need to consult with the union steward?
As many of you know I am a GM production manager and deal with the UAW daily. I have a lot to say about this topic both pro and con. I'm gonna leave my response today very short. But I will comment in more detail at a later date after I see all the posts that I am sure are coming.
Judging from your location, I'm guessing you work at the Arlington plant?
Also, when it comes to unions and hiring/firing, do you have final say or you need to consult with the union steward?
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The fusion is a great car because of the non-union people involved from the engineers down to the laborers
So if organized labor assembled it .. and engineers were organized and designing it... the exact same car would be a total waste of material?
I see.
The fusion is a great car because of the non-union people involved from the engineers down to the laborers
So if organized labor assembled it .. and engineers were organized and designing it... the exact same car would be a total waste of material?
I see.
Originally Posted By: Spector
For many years I was anti union feeling that their workers had a tendency to slack off and in my home town they were probably the main reason the whole area is now depressed as the factories moved out.
However, with the most recent depression and the huge loss of benefits by American workers I feel that businesses are in the drivers seat for many years to come and without unions the workers will never ever be able to regain the benefits that were available 2 years ago. Most companies have dropped traditional pension plans, many have reduced or eliminated 401K contributions, more out of pocket medical costs etc. It may be time to reconsider unions. Companies will never increase institute new benefits without persuasion. today,s management and stockholders want more profits every quarter and don't care about long term steady growth.
Word never better spoken. It is going to be n interesting next few years...
For many years I was anti union feeling that their workers had a tendency to slack off and in my home town they were probably the main reason the whole area is now depressed as the factories moved out.
However, with the most recent depression and the huge loss of benefits by American workers I feel that businesses are in the drivers seat for many years to come and without unions the workers will never ever be able to regain the benefits that were available 2 years ago. Most companies have dropped traditional pension plans, many have reduced or eliminated 401K contributions, more out of pocket medical costs etc. It may be time to reconsider unions. Companies will never increase institute new benefits without persuasion. today,s management and stockholders want more profits every quarter and don't care about long term steady growth.
Word never better spoken. It is going to be n interesting next few years...
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
The Job Bank program has been eliminated. Was a bad idea that was concieved way back when the big 3 were not in trouble.
As many of you know I am a GM production manager and deal with the UAW daily. I have a lot to say about this topic both pro and con. I'm gonna leave my response today very short. But I will comment in more detail at a later date after I see all the posts that I am sure are coming.
My short and sweet thoughts: I think the UAW was needed at one time but has somewhat outlived its usefulness and is way too powerful. The actual workers I deal with are VERY quality oriented and perform excellent work for me. They are good people overall and many even have masters degrees. I'd say that a good 90% of my employees are GOOD people, working hard for their pay. People outside the industry can complain all they want about the high wages earned by an assembler but let me tell you those same folks complaining WOULD NOT last 1 week on this type of work. Case in point - we get temp workers now and for every 100 applications more than 1/2 are immediately disqualified for failing the drug test. We end up getting maybe 25 of these and within the first 2 weeks we usually only have about 17-18 left because they quit.
So - the pay is good but deserved. The UAW hurts me the most by not allowing me to place the best employee for the job - it has to go by seniority. I think the whole seniority thing is the worst thing I can say right now about the UAW that negatively impacts me. The last thing is that it is true that in most cases the union is only good for saving the BAD employees since the good ones are not in trouble anyway and don't need representation.
I'll leave those couple points out there for now.
This.
My Dad is a UAW employee, and he would agree with much of what you said...
The Job Bank program has been eliminated. Was a bad idea that was concieved way back when the big 3 were not in trouble.
As many of you know I am a GM production manager and deal with the UAW daily. I have a lot to say about this topic both pro and con. I'm gonna leave my response today very short. But I will comment in more detail at a later date after I see all the posts that I am sure are coming.
My short and sweet thoughts: I think the UAW was needed at one time but has somewhat outlived its usefulness and is way too powerful. The actual workers I deal with are VERY quality oriented and perform excellent work for me. They are good people overall and many even have masters degrees. I'd say that a good 90% of my employees are GOOD people, working hard for their pay. People outside the industry can complain all they want about the high wages earned by an assembler but let me tell you those same folks complaining WOULD NOT last 1 week on this type of work. Case in point - we get temp workers now and for every 100 applications more than 1/2 are immediately disqualified for failing the drug test. We end up getting maybe 25 of these and within the first 2 weeks we usually only have about 17-18 left because they quit.
So - the pay is good but deserved. The UAW hurts me the most by not allowing me to place the best employee for the job - it has to go by seniority. I think the whole seniority thing is the worst thing I can say right now about the UAW that negatively impacts me. The last thing is that it is true that in most cases the union is only good for saving the BAD employees since the good ones are not in trouble anyway and don't need representation.
I'll leave those couple points out there for now.
This.
My Dad is a UAW employee, and he would agree with much of what you said...
I'm not too familiar with the UAW in particular. I will say that if people hadn't been greedy years ago, we wouldn't be in this pickle today (maybe). It's a game of moderation where "moderate" became the extremes. Crazy, and that's how human nature is.
And, my union-made Buick is generally a good car. I've racked up some serious use on it since I've had it, and it hasn't missed a beat mechanically. Now in other areas it is an absolute tin can, and I can see where they skimped on materials and design to cut costs. That's any car, really.
And, my union-made Buick is generally a good car. I've racked up some serious use on it since I've had it, and it hasn't missed a beat mechanically. Now in other areas it is an absolute tin can, and I can see where they skimped on materials and design to cut costs. That's any car, really.
look for the tv show "ultimate factories" on discovery or the history channel. You can probably find and watch the videos online. There are 2 episodes, one is on the ferrari factory building one of their cars I forget which, then the other episode is GM factory building the corvette. Notice the difference in people, how they dress, general appearance, talk, and act when interviewed on the show.
i think these are it
ferarri:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/ultimate-factories/2895/Overview
corvette:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/ultimate-factories/3325/Overview
i think these are it
ferarri:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/ultimate-factories/2895/Overview
corvette:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/ultimate-factories/3325/Overview
Originally Posted By: PeteTheFarmer
As for retirement, people are entitled to whatever they can get in bona fide contract negotiation. That's true for executives, athletes, entertainers, union workers, and anyone else working under written contract.
This is why I find it so amusing and ignorant when folks biotch and gripe about the benefits that regular rank and file union workers get, while they think nothing about the outrageous sums that sports people get in their unions for doing nothing more that playing with balls at least that UAW worker does something that really does tend to trickle down to every other part of the economy in a meaningful way......perspective is everything, unfortunately in the US anymore most people can't see the forest through the trees.
As for retirement, people are entitled to whatever they can get in bona fide contract negotiation. That's true for executives, athletes, entertainers, union workers, and anyone else working under written contract.
This is why I find it so amusing and ignorant when folks biotch and gripe about the benefits that regular rank and file union workers get, while they think nothing about the outrageous sums that sports people get in their unions for doing nothing more that playing with balls at least that UAW worker does something that really does tend to trickle down to every other part of the economy in a meaningful way......perspective is everything, unfortunately in the US anymore most people can't see the forest through the trees.
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