True Synthetic

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Originally Posted By: 330indy
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: pscholte
You guys did not answer OP’s question. While Group III (hydrocracked, highly refined) oils are lumped into the synthetic category, the only true synthetics are Group IV (PAO) and Group V (ester) oils but these will very likely have a conventional component to carry the additives as syns don’t do that job well. Your task is to research which oils are what: headstart...Redline and Motul make Group V oils.


Redline as a whole no longer blends a primarily group V PCMO any longer. The majority is a blend with about 10% of the base an ester.



And what is the source of this information of "blend with about 10% ester base" for Redline ?

Thread can be found here. The link in that thread no longer works, but here is an updated link to Red Line's SDS.
 
Esters will not show up on any SDS. They are non-hazardous. They do not show up on the SDS linked above.. Only group 3/4 will.
 
Sorry, I thought he was contesting the "blend" with PAO, not necessarily the ester content. Just misunderstood what he was asking.
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: pscholte
You guys did not answer OP’s question. While Group III (hydrocracked, highly refined) oils are lumped into the synthetic category, the only true synthetics are Group IV (PAO) and Group V (ester) oils but these will very likely have a conventional component to carry the additives as syns don’t do that job well. Your task is to research which oils are what: headstart...Redline and Motul make Group V oils.


Redline as a whole no longer blends a primarily group V PCMO any longer. The majority is a blend with about 10% of the base an ester.

Come on man, you can’t make such big statements like that without stating why you think it is true! I think that the street oils have a PAO to ester blend in the ballpark of 56% PAO and 44% ester, based on estimation method shown in this thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4663355/Redline_base_oils
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: pscholte
You guys did not answer OP’s question. While Group III (hydrocracked, highly refined) oils are lumped into the synthetic category, the only true synthetics are Group IV (PAO) and Group V (ester) oils but these will very likely have a conventional component to carry the additives as syns don’t do that job well. Your task is to research which oils are what: headstart...Redline and Motul make Group V oils.


Redline as a whole no longer blends a primarily group V PCMO any longer. The majority is a blend with about 10% of the base an ester.

Come on man, you can’t make such big statements like that without stating why you think it is true! I think that the street oils have a PAO to ester blend in the ballpark of 56% PAO and 44% ester, based on estimation method shown in this thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4663355/Redline_base_oils



yeah
I'm tired of the constant discrediting of Redline oil.
My BMWs just love it, and I get on throttle with total peace of mind.
BITOG haters abound.
 
Some odd answers to a simple question. Here's my take on it.

Is there such a thing? Yes.
Or they all a blend? No.
 
Originally Posted By: 330indy
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: pscholte
You guys did not answer OP’s question. While Group III (hydrocracked, highly refined) oils are lumped into the synthetic category, the only true synthetics are Group IV (PAO) and Group V (ester) oils but these will very likely have a conventional component to carry the additives as syns don’t do that job well. Your task is to research which oils are what: headstart...Redline and Motul make Group V oils.


Redline as a whole no longer blends a primarily group V PCMO any longer. The majority is a blend with about 10% of the base an ester.

Come on man, you can’t make such big statements like that without stating why you think it is true! I think that the street oils have a PAO to ester blend in the ballpark of 56% PAO and 44% ester, based on estimation method shown in this thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4663355/Redline_base_oils



yeah
I'm tired of the constant discrediting of Redline oil.
My BMWs just love it, and I get on throttle with total peace of mind.
BITOG haters abound.

So leaving completely aside the fact that not one but TWO of the actual, legit lube experts here disputed those numbers...

Saying Red Line doesn't have boatloads of ester isn't "discrediting" it. And it's nothing remotely resembling hate.

Ester content can have a major effect at 10% or less. This has been pointed out ad nauseum. It's totally legitimate to claim that an oil with ester levels that low is still "ester based", and it can perform brilliantly if properly formulated.

You want an oil with that much ester? Valvoline Premium Blue Restore has ester levels like what JAG floated. Motul 300V and MPT ThirtyK probably don't have that much, but they're likely a dang sight more than 10%. Know what they all have in common?

1. They're all WAY more expensive than Red Line.
2. They're either not great for street cars, or flat-out not meant for them.

300V is a race oil. MPT ThirtyK can't sit very long before it separates out, and it isn't known to perform any better than any off-the-shelf synthetic. Premium Blue Restore was designed to clean carbon out of the ring packs of Cummins ISX engines and has no other purpose; it isn't even sold or marketed at all, except as a "service event".

Maybe Red Line owes its success partly to the fact that it DOESN'T have that much ester.
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Did Redine EVER have “that much” ester? Or was that just an assumption?


Likely more internet legend. Having esters in the base oil became ester-based which became full ester oil.

“When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. “
 
The Red Line SDS linked above lists the PAO content across their motor oil product range as 25-60%. Assuming about 80-85% base oil, that leaves a lot of room for non-PAO base oils. The low Noacks suggest this remaining base oil content may be high in esters.

I used to call on them back in the 80s and sold them a lot of esters. Unlike with most customers I always appreciated their focus on performance over price. No idea what they are doing today, but hopefully that attitude has persisted over the years.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
So leaving completely aside the fact that not one but TWO of the actual, legit lube experts here disputed those numbers...

Saying Red Line doesn't have boatloads of ester isn't "discrediting" it. And it's nothing remotely resembling hate.

Ester content can have a major effect at 10% or less. This has been pointed out ad nauseum. It's totally legitimate to claim that an oil with ester levels that low is still "ester based", and it can perform brilliantly if properly formulated.

You want an oil with that much ester? Valvoline Premium Blue Restore has ester levels like what JAG floated. Motul 300V and MPT ThirtyK probably don't have that much, but they're likely a dang sight more than 10%. Know what they all have in common?

1. They're all WAY more expensive than Red Line.
2. They're either not great for street cars, or flat-out not meant for them.

300V is a race oil. MPT ThirtyK can't sit very long before it separates out, and it isn't known to perform any better than any off-the-shelf synthetic. Premium Blue Restore was designed to clean carbon out of the ring packs of Cummins ISX engines and has no other purpose; it isn't even sold or marketed at all, except as a "service event".

Maybe Red Line owes its success partly to the fact that it DOESN'T have that much ester.


1. Show me where the two “actual, legit lube experts” disputed the numbers.
2. I’m curious about the psychology on this one. If an “actual, legit lube expert” indeed does have a different opinion on an oil-related matter than someone not deemed to be in that category, is the expert’s opinion automatically deemed to be correct or just sometimes? In reality, is the expert’s opinion always or just sometimes correct?
3. Based on what, did you conclude that MP ThirtyK separates out? What is your explanation for such a behavior?
4. Do you really think that a motor oil with more than 10% ester is doomed to be “not great” in street cars? If so, what is your explanation for that? If the 10% value doesn’t match the threshold you have in mind, what value does?
5. What is your estimate for the percentage of ester in typical Red Line street oils and how did you conclude/estimate that value?
 
Running Redline 0w20 with Archoil. I will say that anyone using a name brand synthetic oil even in grp three or higher is probably doing okay. Some are better than others but with a good filter and proper care it will last a long time. I like overkill oil but anyone using synthetic is in for more longevity and performance. Win win situation.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
1. Show me where the two “actual, legit lube experts” disputed the numbers.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4665597/Re:_Redline_base_oils#Post4665597
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4666333/Re:_Redline_base_oils#Post4666333

Then, when GC was brought up, and people started posting FTIR graphs for some reason:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4666905/Re:_Redline_base_oils#Post4666905
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4667776/Re:_Redline_base_oils#Post4667776


Originally Posted By: JAG
2. I’m curious about the psychology on this one. If an “actual, legit lube expert” indeed does have a different opinion on an oil-related matter than someone not deemed to be in that category, is the expert’s opinion automatically deemed to be correct or just sometimes? In reality, is the expert’s opinion always or just sometimes correct?

An expert on a topic is more likely than a non-expert to be correct on that topic. That's what "expert" means.


Originally Posted By: JAG
3. Based on what, did you conclude that MP ThirtyK separates out?

http://mptindustries.com/mpt_products/automotive.htm

Plus a phone conversation with them. Apparently it happens at much shorter intervals than the normal attitive drop-out.


Originally Posted By: JAG
What is your explanation for such a behavior?

IIRC they were simply laser-focused on making an "all PAO/ester" oil with tons of certain additives, and de-prioritized the miscibility of the components or their tendency to stay in suspension long-term. But that's my amateur self trying to process bits and pieces from readings and conversations from months ago. You should probably ask them.


Originally Posted By: JAG
4. Do you really think that a motor oil with more than 10% ester is doomed to be “not great” in street cars? If so, what is your explanation for that? If the 10% value doesn’t match the threshold you have in mind, what value does?

In order: no, not applicable, never made such a claim.


Originally Posted By: JAG
5. What is your estimate for the percentage of ester in typical Red Line street oils and how did you conclude/estimate that value?

I have none, nor do I care to offer one.



Really getting the impression I didn't make my point clear. Here it is in summary:

1. The claim that Red Line has as much as 40-50 percent ester is likely a big overestimate
2. That doesn't mean Red Line's claim to be "ester based" is spurious
3. It also doesn't mean Red Line is a bad oil

That's it. All else is illustration and rhetoric.
 
I know that you are knowledge dOOdfOOd, and you proved that again. Thank you the responses. It surprises me that MP ThirtyK separates. Generally, PAO and esters typically used in motor oils are completely miscible. But there can be miscibility issues with extreme versions of PAO and ester, such as extremely high viscosity PAO and extremely polar ester. That oil must contain some base oils on the extremes of the polarity/viscosity spectrum. Large differences in density also push the miscibility toward in the less miscible direction, particularly when the mixture sits still for a while. Nature prefers to have denser substances below less dense substances.
 
Originally Posted By: John-r
Is there such a thing?
Or they all a blend?


A variant of one of the oldest questions on BITOG.
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Does it matter? The final formulation dictates performance.

Buy on specs, not perceived benefit of one base stock over another.


...and this is one of the oldest answers and it happens to be the correct one.
 
Until someone asks the question “is the performance independent of the base stock?”.
 
Of course it isn't. But it's not a perfect relationship either. And even if it were, there'd still be the problem that most of us can't actually know what the base oil composition really is. The manufacturer won't tell, and almost no one has the expertise and resources to figure it out.

Performance specs aren't perfect indicators either. Far from it. But at least they're available and you can have some idea of what they mean.

The point is NOT that base stocks don't matter. Clearly they do. The point is that you'll get a dang sight further looking at performance specs than you'll get by trying to figure out base stocks.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

The point is NOT that base stocks don't matter. Clearly they do. The point is that you'll get a dang sight further looking at performance specs than you'll get by trying to figure out base stocks.


Well put!
 
d00df00d - I agree that you cannot directly map basestocks into performance levels. However we also know that some performance levels (eg BMW LL and the like) are very difficult (if at all) possible to attain with let’s say Grp I stock. So when seeing such unusual combination of ingredients and claims , a good dose of skepticism is advisable, and can save you from buying into those oils that PQIA finds from time to time on the shelves and labels them as “Don’t Buy”.

So yes, there is value in investigating the basestocks too. Especially with some brands declining to publish all the performance parameters that could be of interest to the customer (NOACK comes to mind). And there’s nothing left for him other than trying to infer some properties from the basestock.
 
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