JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
What you fail to realize is that, with tradespeople, just like any professional, you're also paying for what they know as well as what they do. And if you're going to hire a trades professional, you're far better off hiring one that has the knowledge the need to complete the job right the first time.
Let's turn it around. As I understand it, your wife does some sort of therapy? Isn't there an hourly rate associated with that? Care to break down why she needs to make that hourly rate? If I needed therapy, would she be willing to dicker on price, or submit to a financial exam like you are asking of the trades people?
Or in your case, as I understand it, you are an engineer of some sort. Care to break down what you make and offer it up to your employer so he can determine if you make too much? If I need the engineering services you provide, are you willing to submit to the same financial exam you're asking the tradespeople to submit? Are you willing, on a discussion forum, to post your hourly rate, and why you need that hourly rate? Your insurance, your overhead, all the factors that go into what you make and why you feel you need to make so much?
In the professional world, someone with a doctorate or masters makes more than someone with an associates or bachelors degree. Wouldn't it make sense that, in the trades world, that someone with the trades experience equivalent of a masters or doctorate get paid more, because their knowledge is superior to a journeyman?
I suspect you would not be willing to subject yourself (or your spouse) to the same level of scrutiny to which you are trying to subject the tradespeople.
Your points are good except that yes, we indeed know what our complete fully burdened rates are, and these folks want more!
Im not trying to create a trade vs professional war here, say that one is worth more than the other, etc. But you ask based upon our professions? We both know exactly, to the penny, what our fully burdened rate of labor is, as well as, of course, our take-home rate of pay. My wife actually has less overhead type costs than I do. I have to cover a lot of aspects of other stuff in my line of work, including running the place, IT, a small fleet of vehicles, support staff, facility, travel, laboratories, etc. off of overhead, and the fully burdened rate including benefits/retirement is slightly less than the charged rate that these HVAC folks are claiming is the reasonable rate for them.
Im not saying that they should charge half their claimed hourly rate, or that they only deserve $x.
But when I get pretty consistently that the install is 4-8 hours, then see the pricing for those 4-8 hours worked at say, $2300, with another $5-700 of profit on the equipment, it sure seems off to me.
Does it take time to go pick up, unpack, and get stuff ready? Sure. Does the sales guy need to get paid? Absolutely. Is there a fleet of trucks and tools and training that need to be done? Sure.
But in my view, the sales guy's time and effort is paid for in the equipment markup, likely the cost to get it to me (delivery from warehouse). Is that really reasonable to be charging MORE hours on it? Then, there is already overhead charged into the hourly rate being charged, which is $130-150/hr, consistently.
And the only explanation I get is these hand-waving arguments about seasonal business needing to make their full wage in a few months, and the cost of keeping a fleet of trucks stocked with parts. Again, the fleet of trucks should be covered by business overhead in the hourly rate, and the seasonal part should not be put onto me as a subsidy of maintaining a seasonal business. That's my thought.
Its not that I should scrutinize them and not want scrutiny on myself. It is that when the hourly rate and tasked time is substantially higher than that of other tradespeople doing comparatively difficult work for less money in a far more transparent manner, then the lights go off. Ive never had an issue paying an electrician, plumber, carpenter or auto repair, all of whom are willing to give an hourly rate upfront (which these HVAC folks arent), an estimate of time, and an estimate of total cost. Im not even concerned if they come out 20% over in the end, at least they are transparent with what is to be done.
All I get is handwaving and being made the bad guy because I dare to ask why costs appear extreme on a total number of hours AND hourly rate basis. Frustrating.
What you fail to realize is that, with tradespeople, just like any professional, you're also paying for what they know as well as what they do. And if you're going to hire a trades professional, you're far better off hiring one that has the knowledge the need to complete the job right the first time.
Let's turn it around. As I understand it, your wife does some sort of therapy? Isn't there an hourly rate associated with that? Care to break down why she needs to make that hourly rate? If I needed therapy, would she be willing to dicker on price, or submit to a financial exam like you are asking of the trades people?
Or in your case, as I understand it, you are an engineer of some sort. Care to break down what you make and offer it up to your employer so he can determine if you make too much? If I need the engineering services you provide, are you willing to submit to the same financial exam you're asking the tradespeople to submit? Are you willing, on a discussion forum, to post your hourly rate, and why you need that hourly rate? Your insurance, your overhead, all the factors that go into what you make and why you feel you need to make so much?
In the professional world, someone with a doctorate or masters makes more than someone with an associates or bachelors degree. Wouldn't it make sense that, in the trades world, that someone with the trades experience equivalent of a masters or doctorate get paid more, because their knowledge is superior to a journeyman?
I suspect you would not be willing to subject yourself (or your spouse) to the same level of scrutiny to which you are trying to subject the tradespeople.
Your points are good except that yes, we indeed know what our complete fully burdened rates are, and these folks want more!
Im not trying to create a trade vs professional war here, say that one is worth more than the other, etc. But you ask based upon our professions? We both know exactly, to the penny, what our fully burdened rate of labor is, as well as, of course, our take-home rate of pay. My wife actually has less overhead type costs than I do. I have to cover a lot of aspects of other stuff in my line of work, including running the place, IT, a small fleet of vehicles, support staff, facility, travel, laboratories, etc. off of overhead, and the fully burdened rate including benefits/retirement is slightly less than the charged rate that these HVAC folks are claiming is the reasonable rate for them.
Im not saying that they should charge half their claimed hourly rate, or that they only deserve $x.
But when I get pretty consistently that the install is 4-8 hours, then see the pricing for those 4-8 hours worked at say, $2300, with another $5-700 of profit on the equipment, it sure seems off to me.
Does it take time to go pick up, unpack, and get stuff ready? Sure. Does the sales guy need to get paid? Absolutely. Is there a fleet of trucks and tools and training that need to be done? Sure.
But in my view, the sales guy's time and effort is paid for in the equipment markup, likely the cost to get it to me (delivery from warehouse). Is that really reasonable to be charging MORE hours on it? Then, there is already overhead charged into the hourly rate being charged, which is $130-150/hr, consistently.
And the only explanation I get is these hand-waving arguments about seasonal business needing to make their full wage in a few months, and the cost of keeping a fleet of trucks stocked with parts. Again, the fleet of trucks should be covered by business overhead in the hourly rate, and the seasonal part should not be put onto me as a subsidy of maintaining a seasonal business. That's my thought.
Its not that I should scrutinize them and not want scrutiny on myself. It is that when the hourly rate and tasked time is substantially higher than that of other tradespeople doing comparatively difficult work for less money in a far more transparent manner, then the lights go off. Ive never had an issue paying an electrician, plumber, carpenter or auto repair, all of whom are willing to give an hourly rate upfront (which these HVAC folks arent), an estimate of time, and an estimate of total cost. Im not even concerned if they come out 20% over in the end, at least they are transparent with what is to be done.
All I get is handwaving and being made the bad guy because I dare to ask why costs appear extreme on a total number of hours AND hourly rate basis. Frustrating.
