Tradespeople on other forums

[JHZR2]

First off, I think most everyone on here knows my care for and knowledge of the importance of the American worker. That is for folks making stuff and folks doing stuff.

Im all for making intelligent, well-informed and well thought through choices on what they do in all aspects.

I also always appreciate the knowledge sharing and straightforward, honest answers given on here. While sometimes people think that some things that are said are overly blunt, perhaps even nonsense, it seems that good knowledge is always exchanged with each others' best interest in mind.

What amazes me are the "professional" tradespeople on some other forums.

If I go to my mechanic, he tells me what his hourly rate is, what he thinks the job will take time-wise, and what the parts will cost. He charges somewhere just north of $100/hr, and of course he is not taking home $100/hr. He builds in his overhead, benefits, etc. into that rate plus any profit on parts.

So when I go to another forum to ask something along the lines of where the complexity lies to do some job, or where the cost elements lie in doing something... or even when I get quotations to do work by folks in some industries, it amazes me that lots of these people get so upset that I would dare to ask why something costs what it does.

It amazes me that somehow beyond a really decent fully burdened rate for labor, plus profit on parts, that I should be expected to further subsidize other goings on, plus downtime when there isnt work. Like its an additional fee.

So not only is the hourly rate burdened to offer overhead to support the business, but then the hours get padded BIGTIME to account for making more money for other times and scenarios.

But if you dare to question it, youre the bad guy.

Its almost like they expect to be entitled to charge what they want and then youre in the wrong if you question it.

Its really amazing.

This forum isnt perfect, but I feel that even if advice is given that someone doesnt want to hear or agree with, the advice is still given from the goodness of the heart. On so many of the other places, if you dare to question the status quo, they cant take it, and attack any way they can.

Its really sad, but Im just glad there is a good conduit to share and discuss ideas on here.

That's all...

 

[spasm3]

I've found that the more honest a person is, the less they fear guestions. The guy footing the bill has every right to ask what he is paying for.

 

[FirstNissan]

I agree completely.

I just moved to a new apartment in Kansas 2 weeks ago. Needed a ceiling fan installed. Asked the maintenance guy if he would do it, he said that an electrician would charge $100 bucks for it, so he will charge $60. I asked him how long, he said itll take 30 minutes to do it. I told him that the fan cost me $50, and 30 minutes of work for $60 is pretty steep. I even give him the option of naming any time that he wanted to do the job (implying his down time). He budged $10 bucks. I returned the fan.

 

[tom slick]

Quote:
It amazes me that somehow beyond a really decent fully burdened rate for labor, plus profit on parts, that I should be expected to further subsidize other goings on, plus downtime when there isnt work. Like its an additional fee.

So not only is the hourly rate burdened to offer overhead to support the business, but then the hours get padded BIGTIME to account for making more money for other times and scenarios.


Can you give an example of this scenario?

 

[doitmyself]

I hear you, man. Whenever I dare visit a forum that includes professional trades people, I found out that you have to tread lightly not to upset them.

For some valid reasons, the pros despise diyers. Lets face it, a lot of hack jobs are done by weekend warrior plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. The stories the pros tell are scary.

Usually their first response is that we should always hire a pro. I often wonder if these guys never change their own oil or spark plugs for fear of not using a professional mechanic.

I really wish we could meet these guys at a middle ground. If their prices were not so outrageous, we could afford to hire them for more of the jobs that we end up "hacking" ourselves.

Usually, when a pro sees my work, he can tell it was done by an amateur because it is "too good", i.e. - too clean, too perfect.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Quote:
It amazes me that somehow beyond a really decent fully burdened rate for labor, plus profit on parts, that I should be expected to further subsidize other goings on, plus downtime when there isnt work. Like its an additional fee.

So not only is the hourly rate burdened to offer overhead to support the business, but then the hours get padded BIGTIME to account for making more money for other times and scenarios.


Can you give an example of this scenario?


Here's one, kind of. At my workplace I have an industrial Kohler generator. When new, I inquired about having an annual check performed on it by an authorized Kohler distributor 60 miles away. They told me that there would be a travel charge of xxx dollars. When I called to see about "maybe" arranging this, they said they would schedule it for when their guy was in our area doing other generators. Instead of us customers sharing that travel charge, each one would get that travel charge.

If they visit me only, the travel charge was maybe $100 (before any work was done). If they lined up 5 jobs in my area, they collect $500 dollars. It seems like double billing to me. I didn't choose them.

 

[tom slick]

Originally Posted By: FirstNissan
I agree completely.

I just moved to a new apartment in Kansas 2 weeks ago. Needed a ceiling fan installed. Asked the maintenance guy if he would do it, he said that an electrician would charge $100 bucks for it, so he will charge $60. I asked him how long, he said itll take 30 minutes to do it. I told him that the fan cost me $50, and 30 minutes of work for $60 is pretty steep. I even give him the option of naming any time that he wanted to do the job (implying his down time). He budged $10 bucks. I returned the fan.


If it was really only going to take 30 mins he wasn't doing it correctly. Learn how to install it yourself, pay someone the going rate, or don't install new fans.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Quote:
It amazes me that somehow beyond a really decent fully burdened rate for labor, plus profit on parts, that I should be expected to further subsidize other goings on, plus downtime when there isnt work. Like its an additional fee.

So not only is the hourly rate burdened to offer overhead to support the business, but then the hours get padded BIGTIME to account for making more money for other times and scenarios.


Can you give an example of this scenario?


Well, that's exactly it. Take HVAC, which is my consideration of the month...

There are lots of handwaving arguments why they need to charge the time that they do, which is already at a $130-ish per hour rate. The arguments are that this is seasonal business that can have downtime when the guys need to get paid, and that things like warranty service and selling and then going to pick up equipment, which they are making a profit on, should be charged essentially as time.

Im not trying to short anyone an honest wage or a healthy profit. And a good person in any one of the trades is worth their weight in gold when the going gets tough.

But there is zero transparency as to actual hourly rates, hours charged or why the numbers come to what they do. Then if you dare ask, youre the bad guy. This infuriates me.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Originally Posted By: FirstNissan
I agree completely.

I just moved to a new apartment in Kansas 2 weeks ago. Needed a ceiling fan installed. Asked the maintenance guy if he would do it, he said that an electrician would charge $100 bucks for it, so he will charge $60. I asked him how long, he said itll take 30 minutes to do it. I told him that the fan cost me $50, and 30 minutes of work for $60 is pretty steep. I even give him the option of naming any time that he wanted to do the job (implying his down time). He budged $10 bucks. I returned the fan.


If it was really only going to take 30 mins he wasn't doing it correctly. Learn how to install it yourself, pay someone the going rate, or don't install new fans.



Assembling a fan out of the box takes time, but if a correctly rated box and wiring is present, it should not take 30 minutes to actually put it up. If not, it can be very complex.

Ive added new fan boxes, correctly installed in old work on plaster/lathe ceilings, and so long as the wiring is there, getting a new, proper box to do a proper install isnt that hard.

 

[doitmyself]

Not too much different than the price on an aspirin while staying in the hospital!

 

[JOD]

I've had some really good luck here, mostly lurking but occasionally asking questions. I've always gotten good, professional advice. While it's technically a "DIY" forum, there are a lot of very experienced and professional folks on it. All of my stupid electrical questions have always been solved there.

http://www.diychatroom.com/

 

[daves87rs]

Kinda reminds me in what I'm going through right now. In order to use the escrow(hud) put toward my plumbing, I HAVE to pay someone to do it. (I wish I could do it myself, it doesn't seem that hard at all) And the prices I'm getting are pretty crazy for what they are doing. And of course the escrow covers maybe half of it due to the prices.

I've been trying hard to do as much as I can myself. My dad has taught me how to put a light fixture, and after you do a few, it's actually pretty easy.

And I get to learn to drywall from a friend of mine next week.

Most important part of it there is to make sure you have some good beer.

 

[bmwjohn]

not to dispute the high rates (I'm a thrifty person) but realize the financial burden that government adds to the bill. Want to do some body work? Finding a building correctly zoned in a big city is $$$, then the sign license, the multiple inspectors, the landscaping, etc. As an example I know a minority locksmith who fenced in his parking lot in the inner city, where his 2 trucks were. He was trying to get permission to add a small pole barn to store them in. It seemed likely it would be approved by the city. In the meantime, another city department wanted the entire parking lot heavily paved NOW, and then the pole barn could destroy it in 10-12 months. Remember, small business, minority owner, no government $$, inner city area that may go up or down. In return for the giant overhead the government will try their best to crush small businesses that try to avoid some of this overhead.Sort of protection $$. Economists call it "rent seeking".As you might guess, I am a Libertarian.

 

[BigCahuna]

What steams me is when your quoted a price for a job, and when it comes time to settle up, the bill is alot more then what you were originally told. My example is the motor on a Harley I had blew, so I went to the dealer to have a remanned replacement motor installed. The "price" I was first told was $2495 plus tax. I said do it. Two weeks later they called and said come get it it's done.So I trot over with check in hand only to be told the total bill was almost $3800. BBBiigg difference form the original quote. They added tax, disposal fees, shop fees,lunch, hand cleaner and toilet paper , and any other thing they felt they could stick me with. When someone says to a person in a store or contractor " what will this cost me" the price for the job is what they want, not some made up number that will turn out to be be twice the quoted price. I could have bought an after-market motor with more power, and a longer warranty for what they charged me.The funny thing was they expected me to just pay and leave. After I gave them a piece of my mind that everyone in the dealership could hear, they came down some but not to the quoted price. Just goes to show you can never tell when your about to be hosed.,,

 

[stephen9666]

Did you have a written estimate for $2495?

 

[MaximusD]

Unless you're a family member, or a close friend, I charge $50 for computer work. I'll tell you or even write down how to do upgrades or repairs for free. I won't walk someone through it, though. Some people have balked at the 50 flat fee. You pay what I pay for parts. My time is worth 50. Better work than geek squad, have it done faster, and I'm not trying to up sell anything.

Time is worth money, IMO, and if you can't do something yourself, pay someone who can. Personally, I need a new roof. Could I do it? Yeah, I probably could. But I just don't want to. Therefore, I pay.

 

[eljefino]

I found a pro video forum and asked what I thought was a simple question about transcoding CEA-708 closed captions on a mpeg2 file, why it was so hard to keep them through any sort of processing, and why nobody talks about it. The only answer I got was to buy a $4000 software, even though I already had a license for a different $4k software that was supposed to work. (I had no tech support from vendor B as it was an "off label" use.) It's like these guys go online to promote their agendas and not to be helpful.

Another example, IIRC, is justanswer.com, where you literally pay for answers you could conceivably get for free elsewhere.

 

[Rick in PA]

Our value of money has become skewed over the last several decades by the influx of cheap products. We have become accustom to things being "cheap". Virtually all products I encounter I could not possibly make for what is charged. They are a tremendous value for the money. I try to compare my service bills with how many hours I have to work to pay them. Most of the time, it's just some Joe just making a living (the same as me) and everything's OK. Sometimes, the charge is excessive, and I move on....

 

[Pop_Rivit]

What you fail to realize is that, with tradespeople, just like any professional, you're also paying for what they know as well as what they do. And if you're going to hire a trades professional, you're far better off hiring one that has the knowledge the need to complete the job right the first time.

Let's turn it around. As I understand it, your wife does some sort of therapy? Isn't there an hourly rate associated with that? Care to break down why she needs to make that hourly rate? If I needed therapy, would she be willing to dicker on price, or submit to a financial exam like you are asking of the trades people?

Or in your case, as I understand it, you are an engineer of some sort. Care to break down what you make and offer it up to your employer so he can determine if you make too much? If I need the engineering services you provide, are you willing to submit to the same financial exam you're asking the tradespeople to submit? Are you willing, on a discussion forum, to post your hourly rate, and why you need that hourly rate? Your insurance, your overhead, all the factors that go into what you make and why you feel you need to make so much?

In the professional world, someone with a doctorate or masters makes more than someone with an associates or bachelors degree. Wouldn't it make sense that, in the trades world, that someone with the trades experience equivalent of a masters or doctorate get paid more, because their knowledge is superior to a journeyman?

I suspect you would not be willing to subject yourself (or your spouse) to the same level of scrutiny to which you are trying to subject the tradespeople.

 

[mpvue]

I've rarely had contractors in my home, but when I have, I get a written estimate and it's never gone over that. recent work was a new roof (no money down, pay us when we're done), chimney liner (1/2 down, remainder on completion. they even dropped it $300 because it was easier than they thought!) and rain gutters (pay us when we show up)
lately I've been trying to get estimates on getting a tree removed, but those guys will only show up when they have lots of work in the neighborhood, and they pad the estimate high to cover themselves.