"Top Tier" misleading
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Originally Posted By: edwardh1
there was a sampling done about 6 months ago
shell and exxon had good additives, most everyone else especially the off btrands had few additives
It is not about the amount.
It is about the type of detergent.
there was a sampling done about 6 months ago
shell and exxon had good additives, most everyone else especially the off btrands had few additives
It is not about the amount.
It is about the type of detergent.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: dave1251
But Shell is Nitrogen enriched.
What do you think makes an amine an amine??????? As in peA?
Thanks for doing the legwork on my point, I was hoping the OP would of done it, or at least asked what I meant. But basically Shell just simplified the mystery of Techron to the public and formed a nice catchy ad campaign without acknowledging the fact the Chevron has been using nitrogen as a fuel system cleaning additive since the 80's.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
But Shell is Nitrogen enriched.
What do you think makes an amine an amine??????? As in peA?
Thanks for doing the legwork on my point, I was hoping the OP would of done it, or at least asked what I meant. But basically Shell just simplified the mystery of Techron to the public and formed a nice catchy ad campaign without acknowledging the fact the Chevron has been using nitrogen as a fuel system cleaning additive since the 80's.
I know Top Tier gas is marketed as having better cleaning capabilities than other gases, but what do you gain from a performance standpoint?
If you search some of the "handheld" tuner forums like DiabloSport you find that they recommend you stay away from certain Top Teir gasses due to knock issues.
It appears people are experiencing the higher amounts of knock retard when data logging one brand of gas over another.
Is the higher detergent content displacing something in the gas that leads to the knocking?
Mods please feel free to delete this link if it's not acceptable but here is an example of what I'm talking about.
http://www.diablosport.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=5579
If you search some of the "handheld" tuner forums like DiabloSport you find that they recommend you stay away from certain Top Teir gasses due to knock issues.
It appears people are experiencing the higher amounts of knock retard when data logging one brand of gas over another.
Is the higher detergent content displacing something in the gas that leads to the knocking?
Mods please feel free to delete this link if it's not acceptable but here is an example of what I'm talking about.
http://www.diablosport.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=5579
I blend my own gas. 40% Shell, 45% Sunoco, and 15% Ultramar. Engine runs smother, and I get 15% better MPG. I have to drive one hour out of town to get the Ultramar, but its well worth it to keep my intake valve spotless clean....
In my area it is a no-brainer to get Top Tier gas since it is the exact same price as non-Top Tier (with the exception of Shell, which is why I never go there). My van gets the gas from Quicktrip and the Lexus gets premium ethanol free gas from Phillips 66.
Look up amine and PEA gasoline additive. You will get all the information that you can possibly care to know about gasoline additives.
Originally Posted By: Capa
In my area it is a no-brainer to get Top Tier gas since it is the exact same price as non-Top Tier....
Same here, but that includes Shell, too. It doesn't matter which station you buy it from (with a very, very small number of exceptions, and they are known to have poor quality gas), it's all the same price.
In my area it is a no-brainer to get Top Tier gas since it is the exact same price as non-Top Tier....
Same here, but that includes Shell, too. It doesn't matter which station you buy it from (with a very, very small number of exceptions, and they are known to have poor quality gas), it's all the same price.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Look up amine and PEA gasoline additive. You will get all the information that you can possibly care to know about gasoline additives.
PBA (polybutene amine) is a amine also.... also originally patented by Chevron
Look up amine and PEA gasoline additive. You will get all the information that you can possibly care to know about gasoline additives.
PBA (polybutene amine) is a amine also.... also originally patented by Chevron
Originally Posted By: dla
I know Top Tier gas is marketed as having better cleaning capabilities than other gases, but what do you gain from a performance standpoint?
If you search some of the "handheld" tuner forums like DiabloSport you find that they recommend you stay away from certain Top Teir gasses due to knock issues.
It appears people are experiencing the higher amounts of knock retard when data logging one brand of gas over another.
Is the higher detergent content displacing something in the gas that leads to the knocking?
Mods please feel free to delete this link if it's not acceptable but here is an example of what I'm talking about.
http://www.diablosport.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=5579
Unless these people are disabling the knock sensors or wildly altering their timing specs, that suggestion about the knocking with top tier pump gas is nonsense .
Now of course you can overdue just about anything, one thing to remember is to use the product (like Techron eg) according to the manufacturers directions. PEA is NOT more effective after a certain saturation point in the fuel and like anything too much might (but probably won't ) cause problems.
I know Top Tier gas is marketed as having better cleaning capabilities than other gases, but what do you gain from a performance standpoint?
If you search some of the "handheld" tuner forums like DiabloSport you find that they recommend you stay away from certain Top Teir gasses due to knock issues.
It appears people are experiencing the higher amounts of knock retard when data logging one brand of gas over another.
Is the higher detergent content displacing something in the gas that leads to the knocking?
Mods please feel free to delete this link if it's not acceptable but here is an example of what I'm talking about.
http://www.diablosport.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=5579
Unless these people are disabling the knock sensors or wildly altering their timing specs, that suggestion about the knocking with top tier pump gas is nonsense .
Now of course you can overdue just about anything, one thing to remember is to use the product (like Techron eg) according to the manufacturers directions. PEA is NOT more effective after a certain saturation point in the fuel and like anything too much might (but probably won't ) cause problems.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
that suggestion about the knocking with top tier pump gas is nonsense .
It's not nonsense. The octane number on pump is an average of MON and RON. Thus, 2 top tier gasolines with the same average octane numbers can have different MON and RON and different performance engines can react differently.
that suggestion about the knocking with top tier pump gas is nonsense .
It's not nonsense. The octane number on pump is an average of MON and RON. Thus, 2 top tier gasolines with the same average octane numbers can have different MON and RON and different performance engines can react differently.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
that suggestion about the knocking with top tier pump gas is nonsense .
It's not nonsense. The octane number on pump is an average of MON and RON. Thus, 2 top tier gasolines with the same average octane numbers can have different MON and RON and different performance engines can react differently.
Its not different gas. Its the same gas with the same octane ratings. The only difference is the amount of detergent they dump in it when loading the tanker at the fuel rack. The detergent is dispensed per the customers specification. The detergent itself is the most likely issue. Thats the reason its recommended you step up one grade when running a dose of PEA through your engine.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
that suggestion about the knocking with top tier pump gas is nonsense .
It's not nonsense. The octane number on pump is an average of MON and RON. Thus, 2 top tier gasolines with the same average octane numbers can have different MON and RON and different performance engines can react differently.
Its not different gas. Its the same gas with the same octane ratings. The only difference is the amount of detergent they dump in it when loading the tanker at the fuel rack. The detergent is dispensed per the customers specification. The detergent itself is the most likely issue. Thats the reason its recommended you step up one grade when running a dose of PEA through your engine.
ABSOLUTELY true that different fuels elicit differing behaviors.
My car is extremely sensitive to knock, and retards timing at the slightest hint of detonation/preignition.
I don't pretend to know why, but I've seen it in datalogging, it's not imaginary.
My car is extremely sensitive to knock, and retards timing at the slightest hint of detonation/preignition.
I don't pretend to know why, but I've seen it in datalogging, it's not imaginary.
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
I blend my own gas. 40% Shell, 45% Sunoco, and 15% Ultramar. Engine runs smother, and I get 15% better MPG. I have to drive one hour out of town to get the Ultramar, but its well worth it to keep my intake valve spotless clean....
What, no Esso? Sounds like it could use a pinch of Esso.
I blend my own gas. 40% Shell, 45% Sunoco, and 15% Ultramar. Engine runs smother, and I get 15% better MPG. I have to drive one hour out of town to get the Ultramar, but its well worth it to keep my intake valve spotless clean....
What, no Esso? Sounds like it could use a pinch of Esso.
Originally Posted By: Bryan K. Walton
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
I think Top Tier has to have at least 10% ethanol.
No it doesn't. The test spec requires ethanol, but in production, ethanol is NOT required.
-Bryan
Top Tier's own website states that for a fuel to be Top Tier it must contain at least 8% ethanol.
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
I think Top Tier has to have at least 10% ethanol.
No it doesn't. The test spec requires ethanol, but in production, ethanol is NOT required.
-Bryan
Top Tier's own website states that for a fuel to be Top Tier it must contain at least 8% ethanol.
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Originally Posted By: ruxCYtable
Originally Posted By: Bryan K. Walton
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
I think Top Tier has to have at least 10% ethanol.
No it doesn't. The test spec requires ethanol, but in production, ethanol is NOT required.
-Bryan
Top Tier's own website states that for a fuel to be Top Tier it must contain at least 8% ethanol.
Explain both Esso and Shell 91 octane gas up here that clearly states that it is both:
1. Top Tier
2. Ethanol Free
Originally Posted By: Bryan K. Walton
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
I think Top Tier has to have at least 10% ethanol.
No it doesn't. The test spec requires ethanol, but in production, ethanol is NOT required.
-Bryan
Top Tier's own website states that for a fuel to be Top Tier it must contain at least 8% ethanol.
Explain both Esso and Shell 91 octane gas up here that clearly states that it is both:
1. Top Tier
2. Ethanol Free
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I just read the line about Ethanol on the site:
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
Originally Posted By: toptiergas.com
1.3 Deposit Control Initial Performance Standards. Initial deposit control performance shall be demonstrated using the tests shown below.
1.3.1 Intake Valve Keep Clean Performance Standard.
1.3.1.1 Test Method. Intake valve deposit (IVD) keep clean performance shall be demonstrated using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-lgnition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. Tests demonstrating base fuel minimum deposit level (1.3.1.2) and additive performance (1.3.1.3) shall be conducted using the same engine block and cylinder head. All results shall be derived from operationally valid tests in accordance with the test validation criteria of ASTM D 6201. IVD results shall be reported for individual valves and as an average of all valves.
1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:
Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 5580.
Contain no less than 24 mg/kg sulfur as measured by ASTM D 2622 or D 5453. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290F. as measured by ASTM D 86.
Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.
This is the part I'm getting hung up on:
Quote:
The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806.
and:
Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:
Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
But reading this:
Quote:
1.3.1.1 Test Method. Intake valve deposit (IVD) keep clean performance shall be demonstrated using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-lgnition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. Tests demonstrating base fuel minimum deposit level (1.3.1.2) and additive performance (1.3.1.3) shall be conducted using the same engine block and cylinder head. All results shall be derived from operationally valid tests in accordance with the test validation criteria of ASTM D 6201. IVD results shall be reported for individual valves and as an average of all valves.
This is just the base fuel for passing the test. I'm wondering if they are able to use one base fuel for the testing, and then use non-ethanol "enhanced" fuel in the final product?
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
Originally Posted By: toptiergas.com
1.3 Deposit Control Initial Performance Standards. Initial deposit control performance shall be demonstrated using the tests shown below.
1.3.1 Intake Valve Keep Clean Performance Standard.
1.3.1.1 Test Method. Intake valve deposit (IVD) keep clean performance shall be demonstrated using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-lgnition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. Tests demonstrating base fuel minimum deposit level (1.3.1.2) and additive performance (1.3.1.3) shall be conducted using the same engine block and cylinder head. All results shall be derived from operationally valid tests in accordance with the test validation criteria of ASTM D 6201. IVD results shall be reported for individual valves and as an average of all valves.
1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:
Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 5580.
Contain no less than 24 mg/kg sulfur as measured by ASTM D 2622 or D 5453. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290F. as measured by ASTM D 86.
Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.
This is the part I'm getting hung up on:
Quote:
The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806.
and:
Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:
Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
But reading this:
Quote:
1.3.1.1 Test Method. Intake valve deposit (IVD) keep clean performance shall be demonstrated using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-lgnition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. Tests demonstrating base fuel minimum deposit level (1.3.1.2) and additive performance (1.3.1.3) shall be conducted using the same engine block and cylinder head. All results shall be derived from operationally valid tests in accordance with the test validation criteria of ASTM D 6201. IVD results shall be reported for individual valves and as an average of all valves.
This is just the base fuel for passing the test. I'm wondering if they are able to use one base fuel for the testing, and then use non-ethanol "enhanced" fuel in the final product?
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