Look in your owners manual. I know many Japanese cars require midgrade fuel to run properly.
Top Tier 87 still pinging/spark knock
- Thread starter kpatter
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Fill up with Shell 89 octane and report back.
For fuel system cleaner do a one-two punch. First use Techron or Gumout Regane High Mileage for a tank. Next tank use some B12 Chemtool from Walmart for $3.50 or so.
For fuel system cleaner do a one-two punch. First use Techron or Gumout Regane High Mileage for a tank. Next tank use some B12 Chemtool from Walmart for $3.50 or so.
Originally Posted By: oilpsi2high
Look in your owners manual. I know many Japanese cars require midgrade fuel to run properly.
Hey, I'll save everyone the trouble. Look at the first line for the 4 cylinder engine. It specifies 87 octane. This is the 2004 Nissan Frontier owner's manual.
Look in your owners manual. I know many Japanese cars require midgrade fuel to run properly.
Hey, I'll save everyone the trouble. Look at the first line for the 4 cylinder engine. It specifies 87 octane. This is the 2004 Nissan Frontier owner's manual.
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Higher octane in a car not specified for higher octane is a bandaid fix for spark knock. Your cylinders might have carbon deposits.
+1 - try Techron
Higher octane in a car not specified for higher octane is a bandaid fix for spark knock. Your cylinders might have carbon deposits.
+1 - try Techron
are you sure your pinging is not related to timing-chain stretch?
Afterall: KA24DE is known for timing chain stretch.
Q.
Afterall: KA24DE is known for timing chain stretch.
Q.
Originally Posted By: kpatter
Since new - truck has only had a diet of Chevron/Exxon/Shell.
I don't suppose you have you ever had any issues with the EGR valve or MILs related to the EGR system, have you?
I am not familiar with the EGR setup on that motor, but if the pinging remains after any de-carbonizing efforts, the EGR system's proper operation would be my next area of investigation.
I don't know to what extent you would be able to on that motor, but If possible, try verify the EGR system is working properly and hasn't become clogged or otherwise being prevented from doing its job.
Since new - truck has only had a diet of Chevron/Exxon/Shell.
I don't suppose you have you ever had any issues with the EGR valve or MILs related to the EGR system, have you?
I am not familiar with the EGR setup on that motor, but if the pinging remains after any de-carbonizing efforts, the EGR system's proper operation would be my next area of investigation.
I don't know to what extent you would be able to on that motor, but If possible, try verify the EGR system is working properly and hasn't become clogged or otherwise being prevented from doing its job.
Best way to clean out the engine is to take it out on the highway for an extended period and cruise in a lean burn condition, this will get the exhaust temps nice and high. So, get on the highway, set the cruise at 120 km/hr and drive for a couple hours.
Originally Posted By: The_Nuke
Originally Posted By: kpatter
Since new - truck has only had a diet of Chevron/Exxon/Shell.
I don't suppose you have you ever had any issues with the EGR valve or MILs related to the EGR system, have you?
I am not familiar with the EGR setup on that motor, but if the pinging remains after any de-carbonizing efforts, the EGR system's proper operation would be my next area of investigation.
I don't know to what extent you would be able to on that motor, but If possible, try verify the EGR system is working properly and hasn't become clogged or otherwise being prevented from doing its job.
I agree with you here. After the very cheap, quick and dirty decarbon procedure, if knock persists then EGR is absolutely the prime suspect. There could be a plate somewhere with clogged passageways (as in the Honda Insight) or a malfunctioning EGR valve that cause this issue.
Originally Posted By: kpatter
Since new - truck has only had a diet of Chevron/Exxon/Shell.
I don't suppose you have you ever had any issues with the EGR valve or MILs related to the EGR system, have you?
I am not familiar with the EGR setup on that motor, but if the pinging remains after any de-carbonizing efforts, the EGR system's proper operation would be my next area of investigation.
I don't know to what extent you would be able to on that motor, but If possible, try verify the EGR system is working properly and hasn't become clogged or otherwise being prevented from doing its job.
I agree with you here. After the very cheap, quick and dirty decarbon procedure, if knock persists then EGR is absolutely the prime suspect. There could be a plate somewhere with clogged passageways (as in the Honda Insight) or a malfunctioning EGR valve that cause this issue.
Check the EGR system for correct operation and excessive carbon as a non functioning EGR system or one that is plugged with carbon will raise combustion temperatures enough to cause the engine to ping under heavy loads.
Run a bottle of Techron through it and stop whining.
Top Tier is not an Anti-Ping product; the correct Octane is. Try 89 or 91 first, no reason to be using 93 if a Mid Grade fixes the problem at a lower cost. Alternately you might be able to adjust timing (or maybe not) but you will be giving up power if you do.
Originally Posted By: kpatter
Carbon deposits - I do 99 percent city driving in Dallas. How do I remove the carbon?
Good ol German tune up. Floor it every once in a while to blow put any carbon build up.
Carbon deposits - I do 99 percent city driving in Dallas. How do I remove the carbon?
Good ol German tune up. Floor it every once in a while to blow put any carbon build up.
Originally Posted By: kpatter
Carbon deposits - I do 99 percent city driving in Dallas. How do I remove the carbon?
Next time you're on one of those hills mash it full throttle (downshifting if necessary to get the revs way up) and watch the rear view mirror for a cloud of black smoke.
It works on my 3.3L Dodge Caravan.
Carbon deposits - I do 99 percent city driving in Dallas. How do I remove the carbon?
Next time you're on one of those hills mash it full throttle (downshifting if necessary to get the revs way up) and watch the rear view mirror for a cloud of black smoke.
It works on my 3.3L Dodge Caravan.
Originally Posted By: kpatter
Below is a copy from the owners manual...
However, now and then you may notice light spark knock for a short time while accelerating or driving uphills .This is not a cause for concern, because you get the greatest fuel benefit when there is light spark knock for a short time under heavy engine load.
I sure as heck wouldn't trust that! At worst, spark knock will blow a hole right through the top of your piston(s). At best, it will still destroy the piston rings. Keep it up and pretty soon you'll see blue smoke pouring out the exhaust pipe when the engine is under load. What you need is a Costco membership. The price difference on gas pays for the membership.
Below is a copy from the owners manual...
However, now and then you may notice light spark knock for a short time while accelerating or driving uphills .This is not a cause for concern, because you get the greatest fuel benefit when there is light spark knock for a short time under heavy engine load.
I sure as heck wouldn't trust that! At worst, spark knock will blow a hole right through the top of your piston(s). At best, it will still destroy the piston rings. Keep it up and pretty soon you'll see blue smoke pouring out the exhaust pipe when the engine is under load. What you need is a Costco membership. The price difference on gas pays for the membership.
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Best way to clean out the engine is to take it out on the highway for an extended period and cruise in a lean burn condition, this will get the exhaust temps nice and high. So, get on the highway, set the cruise at 120 km/hr and drive for a couple hours.
Can you detail more about how to get this lean burn condition?
Best way to clean out the engine is to take it out on the highway for an extended period and cruise in a lean burn condition, this will get the exhaust temps nice and high. So, get on the highway, set the cruise at 120 km/hr and drive for a couple hours.
Can you detail more about how to get this lean burn condition?
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Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Best way to clean out the engine is to take it out on the highway for an extended period and cruise in a lean burn condition, this will get the exhaust temps nice and high. So, get on the highway, set the cruise at 120 km/hr and drive for a couple hours.
Can you detail more about how to get this lean burn condition?
Yeah, in a manual trans 2000-2006 Honda Insight, at least at 150 deg. coolant temp, in third gear or above, maybe around 2000rpm on up to 2800rpm, and throttle position between 14 and 20 percent, you can see your air fuel ratio go from 14.5 to 22.4; in this sweet spot your instantaneous MPG will go to 100 to 150mpg.
And no, it won't clean anything out, and the car will have almost no power to speak of in this condition. And its the only car I know of that has such a mode, because the EPA says lean burn causes NOx emissions!
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Best way to clean out the engine is to take it out on the highway for an extended period and cruise in a lean burn condition, this will get the exhaust temps nice and high. So, get on the highway, set the cruise at 120 km/hr and drive for a couple hours.
Can you detail more about how to get this lean burn condition?
Yeah, in a manual trans 2000-2006 Honda Insight, at least at 150 deg. coolant temp, in third gear or above, maybe around 2000rpm on up to 2800rpm, and throttle position between 14 and 20 percent, you can see your air fuel ratio go from 14.5 to 22.4; in this sweet spot your instantaneous MPG will go to 100 to 150mpg.
And no, it won't clean anything out, and the car will have almost no power to speak of in this condition. And its the only car I know of that has such a mode, because the EPA says lean burn causes NOx emissions!
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Best way to clean out the engine is to take it out on the highway for an extended period and cruise in a lean burn condition, this will get the exhaust temps nice and high. So, get on the highway, set the cruise at 120 km/hr and drive for a couple hours.
Can you detail more about how to get this lean burn condition?
Yeah, in a manual trans 2000-2006 Honda Insight, at least at 150 deg. coolant temp, in third gear or above, maybe around 2000rpm on up to 2800rpm, and throttle position between 14 and 20 percent, you can see your air fuel ratio go from 14.5 to 22.4; in this sweet spot your instantaneous MPG will go to 100 to 150mpg.
And no, it won't clean anything out, and the car will have almost no power to speak of in this condition. And its the only car I know of that has such a mode, because the EPA says lean burn causes NOx emissions!
My previous vehicle had lean-burn. The Civic VX and HX models from years '92-'95; '96-'20 basically was the MPG-friendly lean burn mode engines. From what I understand, once up to temp and in an RPM range for the VX of 1,500-2,200 RPMs (or so depending on engine load/MPH just as long as you haven't engaged VTEC) it wouldn't fully open one of the 2 intake valves/thus allowing the fuel to be cut back. I don't understand the full mechanisms for the HX, but the VX that was the gist.
Anyway, aside from a tune up of spark plugs/wires I think it's not a bad idea to begin with fuel system cleaners.
Someone else suggested the 1, 2 punch method:
1) Get a reputable PEA fuel system cleaner (Red Line SI 1 is the best, Techron or Regane by Gumout otherwise) and run it as directed on the bottle.
2) Then, during the following tank immediately run a different treatment but specifically with Berryman's B12 Chemtool(like $4 a bottle on average, less at WM)...that's the cheapest potential "fix" and wouldn't hurt before addressing ignition related components (if due) or other areas of concern such as further deposit concerns remaining, perhaps a fuel filter being past-due(if applicable), and proceed with gathering your data on those points.
If you don't have a MAF sensor equipped, you could consider ingesting a can of Amsoil's Power Foam OR Mopar's Combustion Chamber Cleaner if you need something local and have a Dodge/Chrysler dealer nearby just ask the parts department. These require the engine to be kept running (usually I have someone hold the RPMs somewhere around 1500 or slightly higher to keep engine on) as someone else ingests the entire contents directly into the intake at the throttle plate (doubles as an excuse to clean the plate itself, if you have a LOT of gunk at the intake/plate itself you should look into your PCV system perhaps, what is your oil consumption like by the way?). Make sure to shake the can before and sometimes during as you want to encourage it to be foaming as it sprays out.
NOTE: On vehicles with a MAF sensor, this is not a good idea to use as it'll probably destroy the sensor. However, you could get it into the engine if there is an induction point downstream past the MAF; as long as the engine is running and induction takes the spray into the cylinders and it isn't close enough to the MAF.
Anyway, you do that as per the directions on the can, but I like to wait an hour before re-starting the vehicle(intake re-connected) and driving it under heavy load after it comes back to idle. The cans usually just say 10 minutes. It's true you don't want the engine to cool a lot, but you ingest it at full temp. It's not going to cool if you close the hood and start it back up within the hour. Repeated 0-60 revs and basically heavy throttle/low gear will drive out whatever is loosened. NOTE: This is obviously risky to certain types of spark plugs or 02 sensors if they are capable of quickly fouling due to too much carbon removal at once; especially if they were older to begin with. Just be sure to change your oil afterwards at least if you use a foam spray to clean the combustion chamber to encourage any further deposits to wash out. Personally, if I know the vehicle has regular maintenance I also use an idle engine flush before the oil change for complete OCD satisfaction.
If fuel filter isn't clogged/past due, plugs/wires(coils?) are good, and the fuel tank/top-end chemical approach hasn't relieved the symptoms you may have to start looking elsewhere but to me that is basic maintenance on a vehicle and if you do them slightly early it's not bad if you perform your own labor/rule out the simple stuff.
Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Best way to clean out the engine is to take it out on the highway for an extended period and cruise in a lean burn condition, this will get the exhaust temps nice and high. So, get on the highway, set the cruise at 120 km/hr and drive for a couple hours.
Can you detail more about how to get this lean burn condition?
Yeah, in a manual trans 2000-2006 Honda Insight, at least at 150 deg. coolant temp, in third gear or above, maybe around 2000rpm on up to 2800rpm, and throttle position between 14 and 20 percent, you can see your air fuel ratio go from 14.5 to 22.4; in this sweet spot your instantaneous MPG will go to 100 to 150mpg.
And no, it won't clean anything out, and the car will have almost no power to speak of in this condition. And its the only car I know of that has such a mode, because the EPA says lean burn causes NOx emissions!
My previous vehicle had lean-burn. The Civic VX and HX models from years '92-'95; '96-'20 basically was the MPG-friendly lean burn mode engines. From what I understand, once up to temp and in an RPM range for the VX of 1,500-2,200 RPMs (or so depending on engine load/MPH just as long as you haven't engaged VTEC) it wouldn't fully open one of the 2 intake valves/thus allowing the fuel to be cut back. I don't understand the full mechanisms for the HX, but the VX that was the gist.
Anyway, aside from a tune up of spark plugs/wires I think it's not a bad idea to begin with fuel system cleaners.
Someone else suggested the 1, 2 punch method:
1) Get a reputable PEA fuel system cleaner (Red Line SI 1 is the best, Techron or Regane by Gumout otherwise) and run it as directed on the bottle.
2) Then, during the following tank immediately run a different treatment but specifically with Berryman's B12 Chemtool(like $4 a bottle on average, less at WM)...that's the cheapest potential "fix" and wouldn't hurt before addressing ignition related components (if due) or other areas of concern such as further deposit concerns remaining, perhaps a fuel filter being past-due(if applicable), and proceed with gathering your data on those points.
If you don't have a MAF sensor equipped, you could consider ingesting a can of Amsoil's Power Foam OR Mopar's Combustion Chamber Cleaner if you need something local and have a Dodge/Chrysler dealer nearby just ask the parts department. These require the engine to be kept running (usually I have someone hold the RPMs somewhere around 1500 or slightly higher to keep engine on) as someone else ingests the entire contents directly into the intake at the throttle plate (doubles as an excuse to clean the plate itself, if you have a LOT of gunk at the intake/plate itself you should look into your PCV system perhaps, what is your oil consumption like by the way?). Make sure to shake the can before and sometimes during as you want to encourage it to be foaming as it sprays out.
NOTE: On vehicles with a MAF sensor, this is not a good idea to use as it'll probably destroy the sensor. However, you could get it into the engine if there is an induction point downstream past the MAF; as long as the engine is running and induction takes the spray into the cylinders and it isn't close enough to the MAF.
Anyway, you do that as per the directions on the can, but I like to wait an hour before re-starting the vehicle(intake re-connected) and driving it under heavy load after it comes back to idle. The cans usually just say 10 minutes. It's true you don't want the engine to cool a lot, but you ingest it at full temp. It's not going to cool if you close the hood and start it back up within the hour. Repeated 0-60 revs and basically heavy throttle/low gear will drive out whatever is loosened. NOTE: This is obviously risky to certain types of spark plugs or 02 sensors if they are capable of quickly fouling due to too much carbon removal at once; especially if they were older to begin with. Just be sure to change your oil afterwards at least if you use a foam spray to clean the combustion chamber to encourage any further deposits to wash out. Personally, if I know the vehicle has regular maintenance I also use an idle engine flush before the oil change for complete OCD satisfaction.
If fuel filter isn't clogged/past due, plugs/wires(coils?) are good, and the fuel tank/top-end chemical approach hasn't relieved the symptoms you may have to start looking elsewhere but to me that is basic maintenance on a vehicle and if you do them slightly early it's not bad if you perform your own labor/rule out the simple stuff.
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