Times change, many refuse to change with them

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I was thinking about it and didn't put it in the other post, but I don't think greed is the main consideration as to why American goods are less competiive in the world.

It is my belief that the costs added by the many decades of social and environmental regulations has priced us out of the marketplace. The burdens placed upon American manufacturers gets heavier every year.

Even though one could make the argument for their original value, there's a point where they do more harm to us all than the good they may provide.
 
I don't really agree with that completely. Cost of doing business may be lower in china but the products are sold here at nearly the same price or same and usually lower quality as the previously profitable offshored American version. Jobs and tax revenue were lost in effort to primarily increase profits.

There is really no such thing as America entirely pricing itself out of its own market in a closed system because prices, labor cost and basically expenses minus revenues would have to correct. Offshoring and importing priced Americans out of the market. I put the ultimate blame or responsibilty on the people who signed the trade deals.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Offshoring and importing priced Americans out of the market. I put the ultimate blame or responsibilty on the people who signed the trade deals.


Remember how everyone laughed at that crazy guy named Ross Perot that ran for president back in the 90s?

Ross Perot:

"Mark my word, when the US gov't agrees to sign into law global trade agreements that take the control of trade away from Congress, which is unconstitutional, and put it in the hands of foreign and competing interests, like NAFTA, GATT,and the WTO, You'll hear the giant sucking sound of US jobs leaving the country, and once they are gone they will be nearly impossible to get back"

If only the sheeple had enough intelligence to listen...the irony is that BOTH democrats and republicans signed these deals , there isn't a dimes worth of difference between the two parties, they are one in the same.
 
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I didn't think he was crazy. Controversial definitely. But also one very bright man who called it how he saw it.

-Spyder
 
And Perot was a business man saying that. I loved listening to his debates, he made a lot of sense. He was one of the last of the 3rd parties to get any real support and he had a lot of personal wealth he used. Therein lies the real problem. We have a 2 party system and they both appear to be all on the same payrolls. I don't want to get into politics but trade agreements are the real issue here and they were/are a federal decision. Lots of places to place blame but the responsibility and buck stops there.

That they made him out to be a crazy man to me was just an example of how the media tries to lead the public. they're on the payroll too.
 
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I put the ultimate blame or responsibilty on the people who signed the trade deals.

So you want higher prices and government bureaucrats deciding what products you can purchase?

This has a chilling effect on the economy and starts trade wars. This is not productive reduces economic activity.

Please explain to me how you can tax yourself into prosperity.

This thread has really demonstrated how little people understand economics. It's not about nations, it's about people being able to make economic decisions for themselves.

The government does not know better than you as to what products you want or will make your life better. Though, those that believe in high tariffs and taxes do...

The education system in this country is terrible. Provided by government and taught by truly greedy and corrupt public unions. US students have some of the worse science scores in the west and people actually wonder why jobs are going overseas. It's amazing.
 
We are purchasing in most cases the same product at the same price only now made in china with usually lower quality. We are not selling anything to china so it could hardly be callled trade. If China wants to set up a shop here and pay prevailing market wages and sell in the USD market or if the US does the same, that would be fine.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
We are purchasing in most cases the same product at the same price only now made in china with usually lower quality. We are not selling anything to china so it could hardly be callled trade. If China wants to set up a shop here and pay prevailing market wages and sell in the USD market or if the US does the same, that would be fine.


I agree, mechanicx. A few months ago, at a local retailer, i found out that moto master oil filters were stamped as made in China. From what i can recall, they used to be made somewhere in Canada or the US. Obviously, the price was the same. A google search revealed anecdotal evidence of poor quality

Another problem i have with the Chinese is the artificial undervaluation of renminbi. The lack of any US action in response is disturbing, too.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
We are purchasing in most cases the same product at the same price only now made in china with usually lower quality. We are not selling anything to china so it could hardly be callled trade. If China wants to set up a shop here and pay prevailing market wages and sell in the USD market or if the US does the same, that would be fine.


Well stated. I'm all for this...but first the US has to impose high tariffs on value added products (including things like steel, ect) from ANY country that is not paying a wage that is on par with any developed country. I'm not against trading with nations that are on a level playing field like Japan, Germany, France, Canada, Australia, ect.

We have to put people back to work making things again in the USA....and it is true that I have noticed that whether the EXACT SAME product is made in China, or say Canada the price ALWAYS exactly the same, obviously greed is hard at work if nothing else.

Also correct, Chinese currency must not be artificially pegged to the dollar. Talk about trade violations!

Tempest would say oh, but we do sell things to China....like bags of potato chips, and um, well....um....beef jerkey too!
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It is greed. If a corporation can setup headquarters in the US, and offshore its production to some 3rd world country where there are no regulations and they can pay the workers in bags of rice, they do it. The capitalist system and the weight it places on returning maximum profits to shareholders as the prime operating model, coupled with a global economy and workforce, demands that they do it.

Its the way the system is setup. If company X balks at such practices, company Y won't and they will kill of X. You will find no better real world example than Walmart and their massive success in a relatively short span of time; although they are only a more visible example of what every other major corporation is doing and has been doing for years.

Of course, those who pioneered the capitalist system didn't envision it taking on its modern day form - as the automation, developments in shipping and transformation, communication, etc that all make this feasible didn't exist back then.

Right now the only comparative advantage N.A. enjoys is that it remains a leader in technology development and implementation. Once countries such as China have caught up, and that advantage is no longer enjoyed, and our only remaining sector is the (largely) underpaying service sector, we will be at a tremendous disadvantage. And, ironically, its that same technological lead that leads to more and more outsourcing. Double-edged sword indeed.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Tempest
It would seem that if they don't get the lower wages, the plant closes down, and everyone looses. More proof that Unions cost Americans jobs.


And yet, the inescapable truth is that the only alternative is "American jobs" that no actual American would be interested in working for what's being paid. . .


Plenty of people who want to work, that will work for 14 per hour.
 
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Chinese manufacturing employment peaked in 1996 at 126 million workers.[12]94 The privatization of inefficient state-owned enterprises and the adoption of productivity-increasing technology eliminated tens of millions of Chinese manufacturing jobs between 1996 and 2002. Chinese manufacturing employment partially recovered to 113 million by 2006, but was still well below its 1996 level.[13]95 The same factors that have eliminated American manufacturing jobs have also eliminated millions of manufacturing jobs in China. Congress cannot bring back manufacturing positions eliminated by technology by restricting foreign trade.

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The argument that Chinese trade has cost U.S. manufacturing jobs has even less support. Trade with China has increased, but this increase has come largely at the expense of other U.S. trading partners. Chart 2 shows imports of goods to the United States from the Pacific Rim as a percent of all U.S. goods imports.[4]86 The share of imports coming from China has increased by 14 percentage points since 1992. However, the proportion of U.S. imports coming from Pacific Rim nations other than China has dropped by 19 percent. The overall proportion of goods the U.S. imported from the Pacific Rim actually fell during that period.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/10/Technology-Explains-Drop-in-Manufacturing-Jobs
Of course this will be completely ignored by those that wish to blame trade for our nation's lack of competitiveness.
It's NOT.
 
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Of course, those who pioneered the capitalist system didn't envision it taking on its modern day form - as the automation, developments in shipping and transformation, communication, etc that all make this feasible didn't exist back then.

It's still amazes me that people look on these as bad things. Capitalism is what has provided them.

What system would you prefer?
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
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Of course, those who pioneered the capitalist system didn't envision it taking on its modern day form - as the automation, developments in shipping and transformation, communication, etc that all make this feasible didn't exist back then.

It's still amazes me that people look on these as bad things. Capitalism is what has provided them.

What system would you prefer?


And what it gave to the middle class, its been steadily taking away over the last half century. Property ownership? Disappearing to be replaced by multiple mortgages. Savings? Disappearing to be replaced with increasing levels of consumer debt. Job security? Disappearing and increasingly being replaced with job insecurity. A livable wage? Disappearing and increasingly being replaced by multiple jobs and more hours worked.

And if the system isn't badly broken, then I don't know how bad it has to get before people begin to acknowledge how much things have devolved and how much former wealth has disappeared from an increasingly smaller, and less well off, middle class.

Tempest, I don't have the solution to the flaws in the current system and the way they are being exploited by a very few, to the detriment of the great majority. I would call such a exploitation very undemocratic, however.

It wasn't the Communist system of government or lack of political rights that toppled the USSR. What finally caused the collapse was that as an economic system it increasingly failed to meet the needs of the people, and it was the economic, and not political, problems that grew over time that led to its collapse.

We are seeing problems developing internally within our own nations that is increasingly resembling the same type of wealth distribution that existed in the USSR: a nation consisting of a small minority of elites where the wealth of the nation is concentrated, while the great majority are left to compete for the scraps.

This is where global free trade has led us, and when a company sets up shop in a city in NA, and then outsources its production to another country, and with it the wages paid to produce the infrastructure to build the factories that make the product, and those who work in those factories, then there is something badly broken somewhere.

Given that tariffs etc existed when the system I was created, I very much doubt that those who created it ever envisioned it taking on its present day form.

To me Globalization and global free trade is a zero sum game as we race to the bottom to achieve parity with those countries who are at the bottom. I doubt very much that the citizens of any of the nations involved are benefiting by it. Certainly the ones from this hemisphere are not.

-Spyder
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States

"Data from the United States Department of Commerce and Internal Revenue Service indicate that income inequality has been increasing since the 1970s,[10][11][12][13][14] whereas it had been declining during the mid 20th century.[15][16] As of 2006, the United States had one of the highest levels of income inequality, as measured through the Gini index, among high income countries, comparable to that of some middle income countries such as Russia or Turkey,[17] being one of only few developed countries where inequality has increased since 1980.[18]

Alan Greenspan stated before Congress in 2005 [19]:

As I've often said, this is not the type of thing which a democratic society - a capitalist democratic society - can really accept without addressing. ”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States

"Wealth inequality in the United States refers to the unequal distribution of financial assets among residents of the United States. Wealth includes the values of homes, automobiles, businesses, savings, and investments. [1] Those who acquire a great deal of financial wealth do so primarily through the appreciation of fiscal portfolios. For this reason, financial wealth involves only stocks and mutual funds, and other investments and is subject to much greater inequality than net worth alone. Various sociological statistics suggest the severity of wealth inequality "with the top 10% possessing 80% of all financial assets [and] the bottom 90% holding only 20% of all financial wealth."[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality

Magnitude of inequality in the modern world

A study by the World Institute for Development Economics Research at United Nations University reports that the richest 1% of adults alone owned 40% of global assets in the year 2000. The three richest people possess more financial assets than the lowest 48 nations, combined [2]. The combined wealth of the 10 million millionaires grew to nearly $41 trillion in 2008.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade

"The fledgling Republican Party led by Abraham Lincoln, who called himself a "Henry Clay tariff Whig," strongly opposed free trade and implemented a 44 percent tariff during the Civil War in part to pay for railroad subsidies, the war effort, and to protect favored industries.[8] President William McKinley stated the United States' stance under the Republican Party (which won every election for President until 1912, except the two non-consecutive terms of Grover Cleveland) as thus:

"Under free trade the trader is the master and the producer the slave. Protection is but the law of nature, the law of self-preservation, of self-development, of securing the highest and best destiny of the race of man. [It is said] that protection is immoral…. Why, if protection builds up and elevates 63,000,000 [the U.S. population] of people, the influence of those 63,000,000 of people elevates the rest of the world. We cannot take a step in the pathway of progress without benefitting mankind everywhere. Well, they say, ‘Buy where you can buy the cheapest'…. Of course, that applies to labor as to everything else. Let me give you a maxim that is a thousand times better than that, and it is the protection maxim: ‘Buy where you can pay the easiest.' And that spot of earth is where labor wins its highest rewards."[9]"

""Free trade" is opposed by many anti-globalization groups, based on their assertion that free trade agreements generally do not increase the economic freedom of the poor or the working class, and frequently make them poorer. Where the foreign supplier allows de facto exploitation of labor, domestic free-labor is unfairly forced to compete with the foreign exploited labor, and thus the domestic "working class would gradually be forced down to the level of helotry." [26] To this extent, free trade is seen as nothing more than an end-run around laws that protect individual liberty, such as the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (outlawing slavery and indentured servitude). In this regard, protective trade policies are seen, not so much as protecting domestic producers, but rather, as protecting liberty itself. This argument actually comports with the economic analysis of Free Trade to the extent that "slavery and perfect competition equilibria are Pareto optimal." [27] Thus, while admitting that some gain in efficiency might be realized in the short-term by implementation of free trade policies, the long-term question of the cost of that efficiency in terms of loss of liberty remains."

-Spyder
 
The economy is better when we have a larger trade deficit:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10674

Free trade has in fact, been good for the US:
http://thehill.com/opinion/op-ed/93115-free-trade-pacts-have-been-good-for-us
It's where we don't have free trade where the "problems" occur.
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It wasn't the Communist system of government or lack of political rights that toppled the USSR. What finally caused the collapse was that as an economic system it increasingly failed to meet the needs of the people, and it was the economic, and not political, problems that grew over time that led to its collapse.

The communist government WAS the economy. And it's officials made every important decision. The fact that the people did not have the right to profit from their own labor and make their own decisions is in fact why they failed.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest

The communist government WAS the economy. And it's officials made every important decision. The fact that the people did not have the right to profit from their own labor and make their own decisions is in fact why they failed.


You're almost there Tempest. Here's the modern day analogy in our society under free trade:

The import economy IS the economy. And its officials (read government on one end, which implement the policies, transnational corporate CEOs on the other, who execute decisions enabled by the policies) make every important decision. The fact is that when labor is outsourced TO China it denies people on the this content the right to profit from their own labor (because its been moved to another continent!) and make their own decisions (because decision making is a function of power, which is a function of wealth, which is something the middle and working classes no longer posses).

When you take away manufacturing, what's left is a poor substitute. Is was the growth in manufacturing that created the economic wealth of the US, created the middle class, and concentrated a healthy share of that wealth there.

Its no coincidence that the disappearance of the manufacturing sector has coincided with the disappearance of the middle class, and taken the wealth it once held, and transferred it to a small segment of society here (composed of the top 1%) and wealth overseas that has been returned in the form of credit (national debt).

What exists on the international scale exists on the national scale, as the citizenry, like the nation itself, increasingly relies on credit.

Its not quite the USSR. But the economic parallels are increasingly beginning to resemble it. Liberty without the prosperity to enjoy it is a hollow thing.

-Spyder
 
Ok, since free trade is bad in your opinion, you would have no problem sealing off the border between the US and Canada, right?

That would necessarily, in your view, make both the US and Canadian economies much better than they are now. Correct?
 
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
It's all Henry Ford's fault.

First he sued and won against the automotive trust that claimed the rights to all automotive patents. That group had quotas on the amount of cars built in the USA so that the common man could never purchase one.

Then he consistantly lowered the price of the Model T while simultaneously increasing the wages of his workers.

Bar was set too high right there.


Very interesting observation. Also very CORRECT.
 
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