Tighter fuel efficiency standards for heavy trucks

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: chrisri

What is your average mpg TiredTrucker, and what is your vehicle GW fully loaded?


Dumped ECM awhile back when I got an ABS sensor replaced and they had the ECM hooked up. The lifetime average mpg for the truck was 7.93 mpg over roughly 400,000 miles. Loads are anywhere from 10,000 to 46,500 lb, with an average payload of roughly 37,000 lb, for a total average gross of around 69,500 lb. Truck and trailer, with full fuel tanks, comes in at around 32,500 lb.

There is some truth that the heavy truck OEM's are going thru a hard time with the emissions stuff, similar to what the autos went thru in the 70's, but hardly comparable. EGR with a gasser is quite another issue than EGR on a diesel. Soot loading is one aspect along with EGR on diesel must be cooled substantially before being introduced to intake. This requires extreme heavy duty radiator cooling far beyond the past, and EGR coolers can crack and fail and allow coolant into intake directly. leading to major engine repairs.

And Selective Catalytic Reduction, with the associated Diesel Exhaust Fluid is far beyond anything that a catalytic converter on a gas motor is. And then there is the Diesel Particulate Filter than captures every little piece of carbon that makes it that far, and once that unit reaches a predetermined clogged level, then fuel is injected and a very hot burn of up to 1500F is initiated to burn off those particulates.

Auto emissions in the past, and even current, doesn't even come close to the complexity of the emissions setups required on diesels now. To even remotely compare the current diesel OEM hassles to the emissions problems OEM's dealt with in cars in the 70's and early 80's is just a little off the mark. What the gassers dealt with was just a warm up compared to the diesel OEM's are dealing with. Either way, the consumer is the worse for it.

Thanks for the answer TT. I just wanted to pull a comparison between American and European rigs. Over here truck manufacturers seems were able to reduce fuel consumption even with introduction of more strict emission controls. In Europe maximum GW is 40 tonnes, but some countries like Italy allow up to 44 tonnes, and with 40 tonnes 2014 IVECO rig is consuming 31-32 L/100KM. With 44 tonnes consumption goes up by a litre or two. Back in a 05 similar MAN 440hp rig used around 38L/100KM. MB Actros of the same age used also around 37-40L/100KM. So as you can see consumption went down quite a bit in the last decade.

 

[gman2304]

7.93 mpg is crazy good. I drive part time since retiring and our 2014 Volvo day cabs get only about 7 mpg on a good day. I pulled two heavy loads Thursday, one North to Fredericksburg, Va and another South back to Greensboro, N.C. I fueled post trip and it took 90 gallons. The trip was 540 miles. Exactly 6 mpg but I was grossing right at 80,000 lbs both ways. I had to slide the tandems in Va going both ways. I was over 1,800 lbs on the trailer both times, but managed to have a little wiggle room left to adjust it out. We have the 405 HP Volvo engines governed down to 65 mph. They're turning 1450 RPM's at 65 mph and still get bad fuel mileage. The pencil pushers in the transportation dept think they're saving the company money.

 

[sciphi]

I don't pretend to even begin to know the level of complexity of the various emissions systems on a modern diesel.

It does seem that there's a bit of a teething issue that is going on to make these systems reliable. Cost-efficiency will come. Unfortunately that iterative process still has to play out, and we'll all be using our healthcare savings to pay higher prices for material items that depend on cleaner but more expensive trucks to be moved.

 

[bbhero]

Well you are overpaid

Happy now

I'm joking. First and foremost captain.... I DID NOT say or specify ALL government workers are overpaid. In fact... Many are underpaid as well. I have no problem stating that. But the the same is true in the private sector has well. Overpaid people in bloated top heavy corporations is prevalent there too.
Don't assume what I really think......
You may well be surprised

Question?? What do you do??? What requirements are there to be met to perform you job??
What's the pay scale for an equivalent position in the private sector??
You don't have to answer these questions if you don't want too. I would understand if you don't. There are instances in which government workers are UNDERPAID for the EXACT same jobs has the private sector. Then there are instances the balance goes the other way too.

 

[TiredTrucker]

In perspective, that 7.93 mpg lifetime average also includes staying north all winter long and dealing with wind and sub zero temps most of the time. It would probably be higher if I ran I-10 all winter long. My setup is a little unorthodox. I have a Detroit Series 60 12.7 pumping 515 hp and 1750 torque, driving 2.64 rears thru a Eaton 18 speed. I generally run in direct drive (16th). Motor is turning 1380 at 60, 1425 at 62, and 1500 at 65 mph. I have a digital Odometer along with the analog odometer. have no clue how fast the truck will run, as it has never been in top gear since I bought it new. I generally run in the 62-65 mph range because I have no need to run faster. I book my loads and set up times so that I don't have to kill myself to get things done. Saves on tires also... I have 418,000 miles on the original wide based drive tires and they still have about 9/32nd tread left. Not bad after 3 full winters on them. They will get changed out this fall. I got 210,000 on the first set of steer tires, currently have 208,000 on this set and still 10/32nd tread left. Same thing, will get changed out this fall.

It really is not a problem of government workers being overpaid, it is a problem of so much regulatory nonsense being piled up on the backs of both the general population and business. And that the folks who generally are in charge of government agencies have no actual clue what they are doing, but are placed there as reward for campaign stuff they did to get a candidate elected. Like a lawyer being placed as head of the Department of Transportation. That idiot doesn't have a first clue about transportation logistics or how a highway is designed. Does not have any idea about the issues that affect air, water, and land transportation. But, as a lawyer, he can pontificate about how we need more regulations.

 

[CurtisB]

Wow are there some misunderstandings about freight logistics floating about. The transport of consumer commodities is not exclusive to one mode of transport. Freight "logistics" is an assembly line of transport methods and distributors, each playing their role to produce a finished product. The finished product is your consumer goods reaching the vender, than sold to the consumer.

Let me provide a purely hypothetical and extremely over-simplified scenario:
A plant in China mass produces air conditioners. The plants packaging and warehousing division loads the freshly manufactured air conditioners into rail intermodal containers. A truck transports the intermodal container to the harbour. From the harbour it goes across the ocean through marine shipping to another harbour. The container is than loaded onto a rail car at an adjoined rail yard. A train transports the container (along with hundreds of others like it) across the country to yet another rail yard. From that rail yard it is loaded onto yet another truck. The truck transports the container to an agent (also called a distributor). The agent receives a wide variety of consumer commodities through intermodal containers. The air conditioners are received and reloaded in portions into multiple dryvan trailers; along with a menagerie of other consumer goods imported and distributed by this particular agent. From here multiple trucks haul the multiple dryvans bound for the multiple vendors. The consumer than drives to the vender and buys an air conditioner. During the drive home, the consumer is delayed by both heavy commercial trucks, and a really long wait at a rail crossing. The overzealous consumer than proceeds to make a criticism of the transport industry, based completely on selfishness and ignorance.

To those who continue to make the misinformed assumption that trains can replace commercial trucks: you cannot have efficiency with either exclusively. The free market has the natural tendency to bring about efficiency/cost effectiveness through competition. There is incredible competition in the freight logistics industry. The end result is seamless synchronicity through different modes of transport, bringing consumers and industry commodities in what is most rapid and cost effective.
We need more trains? we already have trains carrying the blunt of our land transportation needs. Over the road trucking has been used as a whipping boy, even though it is a necessary spoke along with many other necessary spokes in a turning wheel.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Well done, CurtisB. Spot on.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Well you are overpaid

Happy now

I'm joking. First and foremost captain.... I DID NOT say or specify ALL government workers are overpaid. In fact... Many are underpaid as well. I have no problem stating that. But the the same is true in the private sector has well. Overpaid people in bloated top heavy corporations is prevalent there too.
Don't assume what I really think......
You may well be surprised

Question?? What do you do??? What requirements are there to be met to perform you job??
What's the pay scale for an equivalent position in the private sector??
You don't have to answer these questions if you don't want too. I would understand if you don't. There are instances in which government workers are UNDERPAID for the EXACT same jobs has the private sector. Then there are instances the balance goes the other way too.


So you're basically saying there are underpaid and overpaid employees both in the public and private sectors...so why just single out government employees to begin with? Government employees/military personnel take such a minute fraction of the budget anyway, I'm frankly surprised we are such a frequent target for cuts...entitlement programs are what eats the bulk of the budget...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: CurtisB
Wow are there some misunderstandings about freight logistics floating about. The transport of consumer commodities is not exclusive to one mode of transport. Freight "logistics" is an assembly line of transport methods and distributors, each playing their role to produce a finished product. The finished product is your consumer goods reaching the vender, than sold to the consumer.

Let me provide a purely hypothetical and extremely over-simplified scenario:
A plant in China mass produces air conditioners. The plants packaging and warehousing division loads the freshly manufactured air conditioners into rail intermodal containers. A truck transports the intermodal container to the harbour. From the harbour it goes across the ocean through marine shipping to another harbour. The container is than loaded onto a rail car at an adjoined rail yard. A train transports the container (along with hundreds of others like it) across the country to yet another rail yard. From that rail yard it is loaded onto yet another truck. The truck transports the container to an agent (also called a distributor). The agent receives a wide variety of consumer commodities through intermodal containers. The air conditioners are received and reloaded in portions into multiple dryvan trailers; along with a menagerie of other consumer goods imported and distributed by this particular agent. From here multiple trucks haul the multiple dryvans bound for the multiple vendors. The consumer than drives to the vender and buys an air conditioner. During the drive home, the consumer is delayed by both heavy commercial trucks, and a really long wait at a rail crossing. The overzealous consumer than proceeds to make a criticism of the transport industry, based completely on selfishness and ignorance.

To those who continue to make the misinformed assumption that trains can replace commercial trucks: you cannot have efficiency with either exclusively. The free market has the natural tendency to bring about efficiency/cost effectiveness through competition. There is incredible competition in the freight logistics industry. The end result is seamless synchronicity through different modes of transport, bringing consumers and industry commodities in what is most rapid and cost effective.
We need more trains? we already have trains carrying the blunt of our land transportation needs. Over the road trucking has been used as a whipping boy, even though it is a necessary spoke along with many other necessary spokes in a turning wheel.


I don't think anyone in here is saying long haul trucks can be COMPLETELY replaced by trains, that isn't possible. What I have said is a lot of the long haul truck traffic could be reduced if our railway systems were expanded, which is a true statement...

 

[Stregone]

This thread is a great example of how huge corporations and the ultra rich have tricked us into fighting amongst ourselves instead of rising up against them for sucking the wealth out of the economy and the country.

When the rich make money its on the backs the lower and middle class workers who actually did the labor. Then, after they get the money they squeeze it through loopholes to skip out on the taxes, and then hide it away overseas.

Trickle down economics has been a huge failure, or if you are more cynical a huge lie. When the rich get money they just hoard it. When lower and middle class people get money they spend it. How do you stimulate the economy? Get people to spend money! People rage about seeing an escalade or a car with nice rims in a poor neighborhood. What they fail to see is that that is a late model escalade and late model luxury cars are cheap as [censored], and who cares if someone put rims on their car, they paid for it and that money went into the economy instead of being hoarded in a swiss bank account.

Increased gas tax? Stuff is a little more expensive in order to not poison the planet? Who cares if the economy is strong. For the vast majority of the actual people though (people are whats important, not corporations), the economy sucks. Sure there are more jobs than during the recession, but they are bad low paying part-time jobs.

Close loopholes, do not allow corporations and the rich to hide money overseas, raise taxes on the rich, lower taxes on everyone else. This is what we need for a strong economy and all this bickering in this thread becomes moot.

 

[splinter]

Originally Posted By: Stregone
...raise taxes on the rich, lower taxes on everyone else...


Simple enough.

Where is the "the rich" threshold for law abiding U.S. citizens these days from your perspective?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: splinter
Originally Posted By: Stregone
...raise taxes on the rich, lower taxes on everyone else...


Simple enough.

Where is the "the rich" threshold for law abiding U.S. citizens these days from your perspective?

That is a good point.
I think 250K that is always in the talk is bit simplified. 500K, well that is another thing.
I would tax other stuff more: private jets, pools ( I have friends in San Diego that still use their pools regardless of drought etc, as far as I am concern, tax them to the [censored]).
Private jets, huge yachts, etc. I agree with argument that if you work hard you deserve it. I came in this country as a student, walked 2hrs to Wal mart to buy groceries bcs I could not afford car. I am doing good now, and I do not mind paying more in taxes, bcs it is not only my hard work that provided me with good life, but also this country, and we need to take care of education, healthcare, infrastructure. A lot of kid who are smart, and could contribute a lot to the country, are left behind bcs of poor public schools or bcs they cannot afford to go to university. Are there going to be those that abuse system? Yes, but it is one thing when individual abuses the system, anothe when AIG, Boeing or Lockheed-Martin are doing that, in the name of capitalism, while they do not mind tax payers to pay for their mistakes or to use them to sell government more of their products then what is needed.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: splinter
Originally Posted By: Stregone
...raise taxes on the rich, lower taxes on everyone else...


Simple enough.

Where is the "the rich" threshold for law abiding U.S. citizens these days from your perspective?


At a guess: one dollar more than HE has!

 

[bbhero]

Well.... My father worked for the government and was well compensated. Had he should have been. He wasn't overpaid in my opinion.
I know there are MANY federal government employees in northern Va who are doing rather well. Now I am NOT suggesting they should be well underpaid by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree with you 100% it is the long term programs that take a fair amount of the budget. I also feel that our military men and women should be well paid. Also our veterans deserve the BEST medical care, payment and commitment to help them. Especially the ones who have been injured with lasting effects.
You see Grampi..... You and I are not all that far apart in a number of ways we see things.
I may be wrong but I really doubt it... You are very similar to my father. You work hard.. Paid appropiately.. And deserve what you have earned too

My father would have done even better had it not been for his drinking problem. He still had six well deserved promotions prior to his early retirement. Which he did because he knew that people below him knew he was drinking on the job. He just couldn't afford to get caught. So he retired with 25 yrs of service at the Yorktown Naval Weapon station. But he could have done even more. Still, I am impressed and proud of what he accomished.
Again, you and I have more agreement than disagreement

 

[bbhero]

Some good points here edyvw... Some a bit well out there.
I agree with your thoughts about AIG and contractors receiving massive money from the government is a negative as well.
I would suggest looking at the United States Statistical Abstract. These numbers put out by the government clearly tells who pays federal taxes.. And which tax bracket they are in has well. Might be interesting to see what is going on in this regard.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: CurtisB
The air conditioners are received and reloaded in portions into multiple dryvan trailers; along with a menagerie of other consumer goods imported and distributed by this particular agent. From here multiple trucks haul the multiple dryvans bound for the multiple vendors. The consumer than drives to the vender and buys an air conditioner. During the drive home, the consumer is delayed by both heavy commercial trucks, and a really long wait at a rail crossing. The overzealous consumer than proceeds to make a criticism of the transport industry, based completely on selfishness and ignorance.


Yup and why does this consumer need the AC to begin with? Didn't one come with the house? Why didn't it last? Why couldn't he combine the AC purchasing trip with a grocery/ dry goods/ gasoline run, keeping his extra car trips out of the way of other cars, 18 wheelers, and trains?

WM has certified geniuses fine tuning distribution and as it stands with cheapish fuel, they don't have WMs next to "the tracks". They would if they needed to but they don't. It's mostly energy companies, lumber yards, and, of course, huge lots of semi-abandoned semi trailers used for storage near the rail sidings by me.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Quote:
From the beginning I said, who needs truck (farmers) government should make certain accommodations. People who tow boats, well they should pay for TRUE gas tax, same like rest of us (by TRUE gas tax I mean some 60-80 cents per gallon)
Poorly engineered? While trucks should NOT evolve in certain elements due to the nature of the job that is expected from them to do, I am not sure that engines evolved, or some other parts. It is of course in order to be affordable, because American middle class is not progressing (I mean, we need to spend money on AIG, F-35 etc). American middle class still needs affordable cars/trucks in certain price range or cheaper, since taking into consideration inflation, and after Tsunami called Bush, we are screwed around $5,000 per capita when it comes to average salary.
So how an American can afford truck? Offer outdated V8 engine with 4 speed transmission (now granted, most of them now have 6 speed, some 15 years after many European cars had it).
In the end, there is a reason why Chrysler & Co went bankrupt.


I'd first like to thank you for flying off into an even more irrelevant rant than the ones you already spouted.

What in the heck does anything you just said have to do with your original assertion that owning a pickup is supid unless a construction worker or farmer, and that taxes should be raised to make them harder to own?

Now we get into a rant about pickups that was maybe valid in the 90s. Nobody uses 4 speed autos in trucks anymore. Not in years. And you're not going to name any affordable equivalent that was using a transmission with more gears because it didn't exist.

And your great European company Daimler didn't do any better with Chrysler than they did on their own.

It's becoming clear to me that you actually don't know anything about pickup trucks at all, beyond the vitriol spouted by the skinny jeans crowd you obviously run in.

Something is definitely stupid around here, but it's not pickup trucks.

 

[ls1mike]

Please excuse me, I have had a few cocktails.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp

Quote:
From the beginning I said, who needs truck (farmers) government should make certain accommodations. People who tow boats, well they should pay for TRUE gas tax, same like rest of us (by TRUE gas tax I mean some 60-80 cents per gallon)
Poorly engineered? While trucks should NOT evolve in certain elements due to the nature of the job that is expected from them to do, I am not sure that engines evolved, or some other parts. It is of course in order to be affordable, because American middle class is not progressing (I mean, we need to spend money on AIG, F-35 etc). American middle class still needs affordable cars/trucks in certain price range or cheaper, since taking into consideration inflation, and after Tsunami called Bush, we are screwed around $5,000 per capita when it comes to average salary.
So how an American can afford truck? Offer outdated V8 engine with 4 speed transmission (now granted, most of them now have 6 speed, some 15 years after many European cars had it).
In the end, there is a reason why Chrysler & Co went bankrupt.


I'd first like to thank you for flying off into an even more irrelevant rant than the ones you already spouted.

What in the heck does anything you just said have to do with your original assertion that owning a pickup is supid unless a construction worker or farmer, and that taxes should be raised to make them harder to own?

Now we get into a rant about pickups that was maybe valid in the 90s. Nobody uses 4 speed autos in trucks anymore. Not in years. And you're not going to name any affordable equivalent that was using a transmission with more gears because it didn't exist.

And your great European company Daimler didn't do any better with Chrysler than they did on their own.

It's becoming clear to me that you actually don't know anything about pickup trucks at all, beyond the vitriol spouted by the skinny jeans crowd you obviously run in.

Something is definitely stupid around here, but it's not pickup trucks.


My original point? No towing, no farming, buying it bcs it is a truck? Yes, very stupid.

 

[bbhero]

I could see if someone who lives in areas that receive a decent amount of snowstorms in the winter time. The ability to have more ground clearance and four wheel drive to get out in ober 12 inches or more if snow can be very important. My dad got out in the blizzard of 96 in 22 inches of snow in a Ford Ranger. I have to admit that was impressive given that wasn't a very high off the ground truck. He was able to get out and get supplies for himself and his neighbors has well. So if someone lives in the northeast, West Virginia, near the Great Lakes, and many areas in or near the Rockies. Even in the plains states could well be needed as well due to storms there at times as well.
Any more than 8 inches of snow and I cannot get out. Here in SE Va its not all too often that we see ten inches or more in one storm. But in 2010 day after Christmas we had over 13 inches at the hospital I work at and 10 at home. I made it out in a Pontiac Sunfire and Ford Fusion. But it was tough though