Thick oil...Or thin...???

Primus · Oct 21, 2003

Yannis,
Now I have to desagree with you on oils' origin indicated in the report. Think all oils, except probably Kendall, came mainly from European facilities and their origin could depend more from the country/countries of events. Based on my knowledge of plants locations and what is usually sold in Europe (except Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece for which I don't have some info) I would suppose the following oils' origin:

- Mobil, Elf, Total : France
- Shell : Belgium, France, Sweeden, Finland
- Valvoline : Holland
- Castrol : Germany, UK
- Texaco : Belgium
- Esso : Germany, Belgium
- BP : Belgium, UK
- Silkolene : UK

Think the main reason why there are not many international companies manufacturing or blending oils in Germany is German legislation in respect of used oil recycling. It is more rigid then in neighbouring countries and that's why Germany based companies have to use more regenerated oil in their production.

sbc350gearhead · Oct 21, 2003

Personally, I believe that you should run the lightest oil that will protect your engine. If I could get great wear results with a 0w5, then that is what I would use. I also think that the minimum viscosity that gets good results, is different in every engine. From looking at the UOA's posted here, it seems that patman is correct in his assumption that SBC's like heavy 30's to 40's.

yannis · Oct 21, 2003

Primus, I have to agree with you one more time

Primus · Oct 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by buster:

yes, yes yes! Patman is right. Everyone should read this! Especially Dr.T and other thick oil lovers.

[/QB]

Click to expand...

Primus, one of thick oil lovers, in his first post on this topic clearly expressed his understanding why some engines need 10W-60 and others are fully OK with 0W-20. However, each automotive design school was going its own way and their difference has been printed on end-users' preferences. Here in Europe the first synthetic oil 0w30 launched by Castrol in 1996 was remaining unpopular until OEMs offered cars where 0w30 use would not evoke customers' doubts. Introduction of 0W-40 was not only Castrol's desire to duplicate Mobil1 0W-40, but customers', and in the first turn probably BMW customers, non acceptance of 0W-30.

Each of us has a car for which he tries to find the best oil in view of engine design, driving habits and climate conditions. I saw many UOAs proving light oils did perfectly their job. Thanks to this Forum I have discovered for myself that N.-American oils work well too and often outperfom their ACEA A3/B3 cousins. And this is after all this european oil manufacturers' mantra that they were singing in chorus during the last 10 years: don't use american oils, they are of the inferior quality and not suitable for european engines and conditions ! As if there are only european cars in Europe.

That's why, Subary oils' tests presented by Dutch source is very interesting, especially in respect of viscosity losses, and may help to take the right decision.

As for thick or thin, what is better ? May be some pretty girls are searching such Forum ? Gonzesses, ici, ici ...

sprintman · Oct 21, 2003

Patman I just looked at Mobil 1 web site and says Cobra R factory fill M1 15W-50. False advertising?

yannis · Oct 21, 2003

Primus ..this post made me think going back to 10W40 or 15W40 and 3000 mile changes ,at least for the summer.
Its really funny seing mostly american oils used in this ..how to call it? survey?
I guess it is the opposites attraction ..
The oils i have used to far is agip, mobil,valvoline and lately opel's 5W40 synthetic of which i don't know the original oil producer but the logic shows only one direction...germany.

Dr. T · Oct 21, 2003

I disagree guys. This past weekend I took a look at the Syntec 5-50 I put in my girlfriends 1.6L Suzuki pseudo-4x4. After 3k mi. since July, the oil condition looked like it could go another 3k. With previous 5-30's it would be charcoal black and halfway down the dipstick by this point. The maintenance condition of the vehicle can be described as 'fair' in general and the car has about 70k mi. total on it.

Likewise, my 1994 5.6L BMW V-12 recommends the SAME oil as my friends 325 2.8L V-6...so what gives? Do you think 1.8L 318i's in Germany use a 0-20? Common...

Although we've seen some engines beat up oil more than others...the difference here is that...eg. my girlfriend's 1.6 (or a Honda recommending a 5-20) WON'T self-destruct with a 20 or 30 weight whereas the BMW M3 (or the cars above) may...and hence, the recommendation. But, which grade and type of oil do you think is better in the long run?

yannis · Oct 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. T:
I disagree guys. This past weekend I took a look at the Syntec 5-50 I put in my girlfriends 1.6L Suzuki pseudo-4x4. After 3k mi. since July, the oil condition looked like it could go another 3k. With previous 5-30's it would be charcoal black and halfway down the dipstick by this point. The maintenance condition of the vehicle can be described as 'fair' in general and the car has about 70k mi. total on it.

Likewise, my 1994 5.6L BMW V-12 recommends the SAME oil as my friends 325 2.8L V-6...so what gives? Do you think 1.8L 318i's in Germany use a 0-20? Common...

Although we've seen some engines beat up oil more than others...the difference here is that...eg. my girlfriend's 1.6 (or a Honda recommending a 5-20) WON'T self-destruct with a 20 or 30 weight whereas the BMW M3 (or the cars above) may...and hence, the recommendation. But, which grade and type of oil do you think is better in the long run?

Are sure Suzuki Vitara is a pseudo 4x4?

I wouldn't have any hasitation calling pseudo the following , Honda CRV ,Toyota RAV4 ,Mitsubishi Outlander or Subaru Forester or anything else with body-on-frame construction but i woulndn't call this way a car which is also equiped with low-range gearing .

About the ideal oil... a 10W40 SL synthetic seems the obvious answer.

userfriendly · Oct 21, 2003

Buster;
Thick oil users don't have the need to post UOAs every 20 minutes.
We have cars and trucks that have thousands of miles on them that prove our point.
Thin oil users are like little drunk guys at the bar, always pickin' fights.
If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
Viscosity selection is easy. It has to do with ambient and operating temperatures.
At -40C, 0W20 is a thick oil. At 100C, SAE 50 is a thin oil. <22 cSt

theGINGERBREADMAN · Oct 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Patman:

quote:

Originally posted by sprintman:
Cobra R is M1 15W50 from factory

Click to expand...

The Cobra R is an older version (1999?) which came with a 351 in it, an engine that was originally designed quite a long time ago. The newest supercharged Cobra does not come with 15w50.
That Cobra R was basically a road race car, you couldn't even buy it unless you had an SCCA or similar licence. So the 50wt oil is needed since oil temps during road racing get very very high. Running a 50wt oil during a road race is like running a 30wt oil during daily driving, since during the race the oil gets hot enough to thin out to the same viscosity as 30wt. (in other words, 50wt at 270F is probably the same thickness as 30wt at 210F)

its the 2000 Cobra R. Its not a 351, its a 5.4 DOHC
in 95 they had the 351w Cobra R

[ October 22, 2003, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: theGINGERBREADMAN ]

Patman · Oct 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by sprintman:
Patman I just looked at Mobil 1 web site and says Cobra R factory fill M1 15W-50. False advertising?

Not false advertising, it's just that the Cobra R is not the most current Cobra model. As mentioned by Gingerbread man, the Cobra R came out in 2000, and I was wrong about the engine, it's a 5.4L version of the current Mustang engine. The 351 version was a few years earlier. But I was correct that the Cobra R is intended for road racing first and foremost.

http://www.mustangworld.com/ourpics/News/mwcobraR/

http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/mustang_cobra.asp

[ October 22, 2003, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

buster · Oct 21, 2003

quote:

Thick oil users don't have the need to post UOAs every 20 minutes.
We have cars and trucks that have thousands of miles on them that prove our point.
Thin oil users are like little drunk guys at the bar, always pickin' fights.
If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
Viscosity selection is easy. It has to do with ambient and operating temperatures.
At -40C, 0W20 is a thick oil. At 100C, SAE 50 is a thin oil.

Patman · Oct 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by userfriendly:
Buster;
Thick oil users don't have the need to post UOAs every 20 minutes.
We have cars and trucks that have thousands of miles on them that prove our point.
Thin oil users are like little drunk guys at the bar, always pickin' fights.
If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
Viscosity selection is easy. It has to do with ambient and operating temperatures.
At -40C, 0W20 is a thick oil. At 100C, SAE 50 is a thin oil. strong>

If a 0w20 is that thick at -40C, just imagine how thick a 15w50 or 20w50 is at that temperature! (or even at 0c for that matter)

I think that's the big factor here, is that these thicker oils are just incredibly thick on a cold start, so unless you live in a hot climate they probably aren't a good idea for your engine.

If you really want something thicker than the typical 5w30, then a 0w40 or 5w40 is the better choice, then it won't be so super thick on a cold start.

FWIW, I know of PLENTY of high mileage motors out there who have run 10w30 and 5w30 oil. It's not just 40 and 50wt users who get high mileage from their engines.

yannis · Oct 21, 2003

My opinion is that Darvin's evolution theory applies to this issue too.
American oils and the range of oil that usa conpanies offer to the local market are perfectly addapted to the needs and driving conditions-habbits of the average American driver.
You have big-slow running engines, long-straight highways where you drive in reasonable speeds(the abundance of sheriffs helps here ) with no need to put yourself in danger when overtaking in a narrow 2-ways road like Greece's for example.
Your oils are extemely cheap and yet perform just fine .You are lucky people and you live in a counrty that respects its citizens and does everything to protect them and save them from danger.I envy you.

buster · Oct 21, 2003

quote:

FWIW, I know of PLENTY of high mileage motors out there who have run 10w30 and 5w30 oil. It's not just 40 and 50wt users who get high mileage from their engines.

Thats exactly right. I don't know why this is such a hard issue for people to understand. You match the right viscosit with the engine. Some engines like the LS1's like a thick 30wt. some engines don't. What is so hard to understand about that? We are beating a dead horse. If my UOA looks good with the 20wt, I'll use that. Why use anything thicker if I'm getting great wear, better HP/MPG? I think we have some thick headed people around here.

Last_Z · Oct 21, 2003

Patman,

quote:

Also, I don't mean to pick on you but you always say how you've had such great results with these thick oils, but yet not one single UOA to prove yourself. As a matter of fact all of the people on here who claim that the 40 and 50wt oils are the way to go often don't have any UOAs to back themselves up either.

I don't push for either thick or thin, but you have seen a few reports of thick oils in the UOA section........or should I post them on this thread?

Rick

Patman · Oct 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Last_Z:
Patman,

quote:

Also, I don't mean to pick on you but you always say how you've had such great results with these thick oils, but yet not one single UOA to prove yourself. As a matter of fact all of the people on here who claim that the 40 and 50wt oils are the way to go often don't have any UOAs to back themselves up either.

Click to expand...

I don't push for either thick or thin, but you have seen a few reports of thick oils in the UOA section........or should I post them on this thread?

Rick

True, there have been some very good reports with thick oils too. But to be honest, we see very few of them to get a real idea of things, and I still wonder why the people who promote the thick oils the most still haven't done UOAs just for their own curiosity?

Last_Z · Oct 22, 2003

Well, I am....I'm running 350ml of #132, 1 qrt of 15W-50 and the rest of 10w30.....I'm hoping for a light 40W at least....it just takes me forever to put miles on my car....I just drive to and from work, that's it. I still have 1k miles on this interval for a total of 3k, but I'm debating whether I should go longer.
Rick

userfriendly · Oct 22, 2003

Patman;
I think it is because thick oil are pragmatic.

Jelly · Oct 22, 2003

I feel 15w40 is the thickest weight just about any gas/diesel engine needs to run unless it has a severe consumption problem.

Many times on here I have suggested HDEO 40-weights to people, and I'm not basing that on analysis...most in part to the additive package. For example, if you could go over to Wally-World and get Delo, Delvac and Long-Life in 10w30, that would probably change many of my recommendations.

Is a mid (15.5cSt) 40-weight overkill for a non oil-burning vehicle operated under normal conditions? Yes. On the flip side though, I still like the idea of having a thicker-hydrodynamic barrier compared to conventional GF-3 passenger car 40-weights...it all comes down to the additive package for me.

Once again...not based on analysis, just my two cents. Many on here will think I am dead wrong for doing this, but that's you're two cents.

Thick oil...Or thin...???

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