The real reason we need to drill ANWAR

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Farming erodes the soil 100 times faster than it is created. Farm subsidies make this happen more. Ethanol makes it happen even more. After fossil fuels run out in about 200 years, we will also have run out of arable land. When I have kids, I'll tell them to teach some of their grandchildren to become astronauts.


Don't have kids. That's the problem.

 

[oilyriser]

I'm working on that...

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

I don't really see a whole lot of difference between life in the USA and that of 3rd world countries. In those countries, localized corruption exempts the powerful and wealthy from the costs of society. Like here, your wallet determines your freedom. Bribe the provincial tax collector, and you live rich and tax free. The difference is that we have legal corruption that occurs in plain sight. We get to elect our form of legally corrupt officials.



Gary, the difference is in degree. And if you haven't experienced the difference, then I don't know what to tell you.

Let me put it to you this way. I have never been arrested in the U.S. for "public drinking" while carrying a cup of water. And then I subsequently avoided jail time by bribing the cop for $14. This is the way you do business in places like Mexico and some other places in Latin America. I've also gotten out of tickets and other minor crimes by paying off the cops. This is the normal way of doing business. Try this in the U.S. and see how far you get.

While in Turkey, a friend of mine whom I was traveling with got arrested for helping an old lady who was getting crushed by the mass of young men try to race ahead of her into the bus. He was "disturbing the peace." Just to be clear, he didn't punch anybody. All he did was clear a path for this old lady by holding back some others. After that, we never felt completely safe and whether we ended up in prison really depended on the whim of those in charge.

While in Eastern Europe (Bulgaria and Romania is where I was) bribing is the way you get things done.

I feel 1000% more secure in the U.S. than in any third-world country I've been to. There is a reason why they remain third world.

 

[1sttruck]

"And then I subsequently avoided jail time by bribing the cop for $14. This is the way you do business in places like Mexico and some other places in Latin America. I've also gotten out of tickets and other minor crimes by paying off the cops. This is the normal way of doing business. Try this in the U.S. and see how far you get."

It's just a matter of a few decades of difference. Remember 'Serpico' ? At one time in Chicago you'd typically get off of a ticket if you handed a cop a twenty with your liscense. Besides, how do you think big time cocaine dealers got around the system for so long in the US ? Because they're too clever for the cops and courts ?

 

[VeeDubb]

I don't know what to tell you guys. I'm sure it all sounds the same to you on paper.

As I said, it's a matter of degree and probably prevalence too. Spend some time in Mexico (and I'm not talking about a five star resort. Go off the reservation) or Brazil. Go to Turkey. Spend some real time there and then come back and tell me there is no difference.

I'm telling you, there is a real difference in one's sense of security and personal well being.

 

[1sttruck]

'Different' doesn't always mean less safe. I recall a poster at a US consulate office in Barcelona providing cautions about pick pockets and such, but also explaining that in spite of the much higher petty crime like pickpocketing, stealing items from cars, etc., the US has a much higher violent crime rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

2007 Homicide Rates
Brazil 27 per 100k
Mexico 13.0
United States 5.7
Turkey 3.8

 

[VeeDubb]

Barcelona is not in a third-world country. I'm not going to argue with you about what you've read or heard. I'm sure you're not lying to me about that.

Go to a third-world country. Pick one, any one. Experience it yourself. That's all I ask.

 

[1sttruck]

"The sacrifice that most of the more socialized European states pay is economic growth. That's the wages of winning the war against poverty."

Typically better medicare care. Some countries noted that it would be a national disgrace if someone became bankrupt because of medical problems. Public transportation is often better. Crime rates are typically lower. Relatives in Spain complained about having to spend something $700 a year for college, but they said that it's worse than that because THEY ALSO HAVE TO PAY FOR THEIR BOOKS TOO ! :^)

Thinsg are good in the US if you can pay ofr it, it's not if you can't, basically a policy of social Darwinism.

 

[1sttruck]

"Barcelona is not in a third-world country. I'm not going to argue with you about what you've read or heard. I'm sure you're not lying to me about that.

Go to a third-world country. Pick one, any one. Experience it yourself. That's all I ask."

I'm not saying Spain is a third world country, I was using it as an example of how 'different' can result in unfounded impressions. The examples of what I've seen or heard are ones that I have experienced in the US in my lifetime, or friends or relatives have; police and courts on the take, lying/corrupt officials who are dangerous to your well being, police lying in order to make a ticket or other charges stick, courts who supported such actions, etc.

Things have gotten a lot better, city and other governments based around corrupt political machines are much less common than they use to be, but it's not all gone. When my brother was going to college in Michigan during the hostage crisis he had to wear a t-shirt that said 'I am not Iranian' in order to quell confrontations. He also got tired of the police following him when he walked around town and finally went to their station, told them who he was, said that he would tell them anything that they wanted to know, and that after this visit there would be a change in their actions or he would start escalating charges of harrassment. It worked, they left him alone after that. The point is if you're acting like a third world country based upon how people look, are you in some cases no different than a third world country ?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I've also gotten out of tickets and other minor crimes by paying off the cops. This is the normal way of doing business. Try this in the U.S. and see how far you get.


Yes, but we can afford to pay cops to behave in minor matters like this. It's not worth it when they make a living. We also have insurance that employs people to "pay the bribe" (so to speak) to keep you out of trouble. It's a matter of resources and propriety. 3rd world nations leave it to the local level to have those sort of things funded by the end user. A decentralized manner of governess that lets the local communities fund and establish their will in how things are run. They don't need to support all kinds of centralized cartels (AMA, ABA, FDA, insurance, etc) and handle it all in the most effective and efficient manner.

Isn't that a goal of many of our citizens

It's just "opportunity" in another milieu.

Quote:
While in Eastern Europe (Bulgaria and Romania is where I was) bribing is the way you get things done.


In most of the 3rd world this is how stuff gets done. A former coworker was in Columbia on some type of student teaching visa. He foolishly wondered way his renewal ..which only needed a rubber stamp by the provincial official sat on a desk for 6 weeks ..merely waiting for the rubber stamp.

My in the beltway friend had a foreign visa business for a while. He got visas quicker than anyone else since he knew how to apply the proper amount of baksheesh (literally "a gift") to the appropriate person sitting at a desk in a city with a very high cost of living.

Quote:
I feel 1000% more secure in the U.S. than in any third-world country I've been to. There is a reason why they remain third world.


Well, generally this is true. Again we can afford to "pay people to be good". This is quickly changing. I'd also add that if you happen to err in one of the local townships and find yourself on the end of a storm trooper cop ..who is among a small organization of storm trooper cops, that you may really challenge that concept. In our case it's mostly minor ..but ..as you said ..it's only a matter of degree. I think that this will change as conditions degrade here.

Corruption is an inherent condition. It's a natural occurrence. Water Gate, Iran-Contra, S&L Crisis, Enron, World-Comm ..etc..etc. These were our most esteemed and accomplished members of our society. How can you expect "pretenses of propriety" to be upheld in the face of shrinking resources?


As was said, we've got short memories. Al Capone p'wn'd plenty of officials and operated with impunity.

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Corruption is an inherent condition. It's a natural occurrence. Water Gate, Iran-Contra, S&L Crisis, Enron, World-Comm ..etc..etc. These were our most esteemed and accomplished members of our society. How can you expect "pretenses of propriety" to be upheld in the face of shrinking resources?


I agree that there is corruption everywhere. But there are two important differences:

1. In the U.S., corruption is dispersed rather than centralized. Dispersed corruption with checks and balances is far less damaging than centralized corruption. The various corrupt parties "keep each other from going too far" in this weird perverse game. In third-world countries, there are no checks and balances. If you obtain a government post, it well known that you reap the rewards of having a monopoly on corruption.

2. Corruption is actually illegal here. Watergate, Iran-Contra, Enron, etc. led to either the downfall of people or jailtime. You know why you never here about water gate scandels out of 3rd world countries.? Because nobody thinks its a big deal. It's the normal order of business.....as simple as taking an item to a cash register at Walmart and cashing it in. Certainly nobody would go to jail or lose their positions. In fact, they're congratulated.

 

[globey]

Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
"And then I subsequently avoided jail time by bribing the cop for $14. This is the way you do business in places like Mexico and some other places in Latin America. I've also gotten out of tickets and other minor crimes by paying off the cops. This is the normal way of doing business. Try this in the U.S. and see how far you get."

It's just a matter of a few decades of difference. Remember 'Serpico' ? At one time in Chicago you'd typically get off of a ticket if you handed a cop a twenty with your liscense. Besides, how do you think big time cocaine dealers got around the system for so long in the US ? Because they're too clever for the cops and courts ?


How many decades? Stuff like this has happened in third world countries FOR decades. I had to give a cop 8 bucks to let me go in the Republic of Panama...this was for a traffic stop violation I did not commit. I was doing everything short of asking for the ticket. I wanted to see if he'd actually come out and ask me for money.

My wife is from the Philippines. If you have cash, you can get any records altered. College transcripts, official records, birth certificates, etc. This just doesn't happen in the U.S. and if it does, it doesn't happen at the same degree as it does in these countries. It's just rampant.

 

[globey]

Originally Posted By: VeeDubb


2. Corruption is actually illegal here. Watergate, Iran-Contra, Enron, etc. led to either the downfall of people or jailtime. You know why you never here about water gate scandels out of 3rd world countries.? Because nobody thinks its a big deal. It's the normal order of business. As simple as taking an item to a cash register at Walmart. Certainly nobody would go to jail or lose their positions. In fact, they're congratulated.


Agree 100%. It's a way of life in some countries...workers rely on it to subsidize their income. In most cases, it's HOW they make their living.

Sure it happens in the U.S. but not so regularly and it's by rogue individuals, not by entire offices and not so blatant.

 

[Gary Allan]

Yes, it is blatant. It's pork ..it's the EPA stifling diesels ..it's lots of stuff..unfunded mandates..ag subsidies ..weapons contracts.... We have the finest government that money can buy. It's just that our comfort level is high enough to make us ignore it. Hence my term "legal corruption". It's really not all that much different. Does it matter if a cop shakes you down for $8 or the tax system does it for him? The only difference is in the perception of propriety (if you see what I'm saying).

We're shaken down perpetually. Now I'll agree that, at least currently, it seems to work well ..but time will tell.

 

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Does it matter if a cop shakes you down for $8 or the tax system does it for him? The only difference is in the perception of propriety (if you see what I'm saying).

We're shaken down perpetually. Now I'll agree that, at least currently, it seems to work well ..but time will tell.


exactly. Americans love their 'freedom', they may 'own' their house, 'own' the propertly, pay income taxes, but if you fall behind on your school taxes, they will TAKE your house. in VA, you pay property tax not only on your house, but on your vehicles, PERPETUALLY. fees, permits, taxes, etc, it's all institutionalized protection money.
in my city, they instituted a plan for apartment building owners to contract out their own refuse collection. they had to pay a FEE for this (hmmm, I have to PAY to NOT get something). the fee did what? paid the salary of the guy hired to check they were complying!
subsidies are another ridiculous concept. lets pay people to NOT produce, so prices stay high. while people can't get jobs. or feed themselves.
no one country is better than another. but, America has a higher percentage of it's population incarcerated, higher level of violent crimes, higher level of sex crimes than other 'developed' countries.there's your 'freedom'.
as for doing business in 3rd world countires, well, I haven't been all over, but I did spend 8 days in Kiev back in '93. walked all over the place, didn't know the language, looked all touristy w/ a camera and everything, never had a problem. place was CLEAN. amazing how they can respect themselves to keep clean while having nothing. landed back in the US in Newark; the contrast was unbelievable. if you ever want to feel good about America after traveling abroad, don't land in Newark.

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It's really not all that much different.


On paper it's not different. Go there, live for a while, and I guarantee you you will feel different.

 

[1sttruck]

"How many decades? Stuff like this has happened in third world countries FOR decades."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico

Serpico believed that his fellow partners knew about secret meetings that took place with police investigators and with no place left to go Serpico contributed to an April 25, 1970, New York Times front-page story on wide-spread corruption in the New York City Police Department.[2] This forced Mayor John V. Lindsay to take action by appointing a five-member panel to investigate police corruption. This panel ultimately became the Knapp Commission, named for its chairman, Whitman Knapp.

A 1998 report by the General Accounting Office notes, "...several studies and investigations of drug-related police corruption found on-duty police officers engaged in serious criminal activities, such as (1) conducting unconstitutional searches and seizures; (2) stealing money and/or drugs from drug dealers; (3) selling stolen drugs; (4) protecting drug operations; (5) providing false testimony; and (6) submitting false crime reports."

Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 8.


A 1998 report by the General Accounting Office cites examples of publicly disclosed drug-related police corruption in the following cities: Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, Savannah, and Washington, DC.

Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 36-37.

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: 1sttruck


Serpico believed that his fellow partners knew about secret meetings that took place with police investigators and with no place left to go Serpico contributed to an April 25, 1970, New York Times front-page story on wide-spread corruption in the New York City Police Department.[2] This forced Mayor John V. Lindsay to take action by appointing a five-member panel to investigate police corruption. This panel ultimately became the Knapp Commission, named for its chairman, Whitman Knapp.




The part I bolded is the key difference between the U.S. and third world countries.

As I said, corruption is everywhere. In fact, it is an innate part of human nature. How it is incentivized is different across countries. Here, there is some effort to punish it. In third-world countries, there is a blatant effort to reward it.
This is not a binary argument of either or. It is about prevalence and how many levels of society are permeated by it.

 

[bruno]

'Corruption is actually illegal here'
Unless you live in New Jersey where the politicians have legalized it !
Not a joke !

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: VeeDubb
Originally Posted By: 1sttruck


Serpico believed that his fellow partners knew about secret meetings that took place with police investigators and with no place left to go Serpico contributed to an April 25, 1970, New York Times front-page story on wide-spread corruption in the New York City Police Department.[2] This forced Mayor John V. Lindsay to take action by appointing a five-member panel to investigate police corruption. This panel ultimately became the Knapp Commission, named for its chairman, Whitman Knapp.




The part I bolded is the key difference between the U.S. and third world countries.

As I said, corruption is everywhere. In fact, it is an innate part of human nature. How it is incentivized is different across countries. Here, there is some effort to punish it. In third-world countries, there is a blatant effort to reward it.
This is not a binary argument of either or. It is about prevalence and how many levels of society are permeated by it.


The basic difference is that Serpico was able to use the free press to blow the whistle ..otherwise, it was a hot potato that no one really wanted to handle. It disrupted the train schedules that were already hard to manage.