The real reason for tickets.

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
Originally Posted By: cosynthetics
The issue I have with the cameras is that the car owner is liable regardless of the driver. Most of them don't take pictures of the driver. I just don't think that is right.


If that's true, and I don't know if it is, then it sucks and a change is in order. In Germany, the police has to provide you with a copy of the picture taken of your car. The license plate and the face of the driver must be recognizable. If, for example, your son was driving, the cops will hold him responsible. Anyway, only two people use my car, and neither of us runs red lights.


I picked up an Air Force MP (AP?) hitchhiking in the late 70's. He said that if you run a red light in Germany ..that the girl sitting next to you in the car had better be your wife or daughter ..since when the ticket arrives in the mail, some 3 angle shot is there for anyone who opens the letter to see just who was there.

I guess he knew of a few complications come out of this.

They're a safety device. If the metro area was corrupt enough to use the revenues for the general fund instead of using them for other safety improvements, they should be charged with corruption. If they had, then there would be no loss with the success of the program.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
He said that if you run a red light in Germany ..that the girl sitting next to you in the car had better be your wife or daughter ..since when the ticket arrives in the mail, some 3 angle shot is there for anyone who opens the letter to see just who was there.


The hearsay stories never stop. A copy of the picture is given to you only if you demand to see it. It is not mailed to you by default.

 

[cosynthetics]

Random. They were kicked out of the club for starting fights but no one made them leave the property. They sat out in their car for the next guy which happened to be me.

 

[Shannow]

Down here, there were a few high profile cases of mistresses being in cars (one of the drivers was a poli). Photos only available on request, and only if you pay $10. They decided that faceless shots would be provided in future.

The obligation on the part of the car owner is to eirht pay the fine, or dob in the driver.

 

[SecondMonkey]

There's a law in oregon that says a city cannot install a red light camera unless they have a population of 30,00 or more. The town next door is only about 20,000, but somehow they got approved to install a camera. (silly me, I thought the government had to obey their own laws)

Shortly after it was installed, I took off both my license plates, and purposely (and safely) went through a red light with my middle finger waving.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
He said that if you run a red light in Germany ..that the girl sitting next to you in the car had better be your wife or daughter ..since when the ticket arrives in the mail, some 3 angle shot is there for anyone who opens the letter to see just who was there.


The hearsay stories never stop. A copy of the picture is given to you only if you demand to see it. It is not mailed to you by default.


Perhaps it was different for GI's. As the XO of our unit, the 1st Sergeant and I got the pictures. There were several times when the woman with the driver was not his wife.

If the car was registered with USAREUR plates, the ticket was mailed to the unit the soldier or airman was assigned to, including the picture.

 

[moribundman]

The claim was presented as a general statement. Nobody said anything about the red light running adulterers not being German citizens. I have no idea how tickets and pictures were handled in that case in the past or how that works these days. If I get a ticket for speeding, tailgating, or for running a red light, I have to ask for a copy of the picture if I want to see it.

 

[javacontour]

And that makes sense to me, not argument. I've experienced the German legal system since I totaled a car over there in 1989.

It is very interesting. They gather the data/evidence and make a ruling. If you don't agree, you can go to court.

I was passing a Porsche 924 in my Beretta when the driver of the Porsche didn't want to be passed by an American car (I assume) and he sped up. The mistake I made was that I didn't just run him into the ditch instead of "dancing" with the on-coming BMW.

So when the authorities investigated the accident, I was accused of passing in a no-passing zone, speeding, and reckless driving. So, I learned a new German word when the initial judgment came, Rechtsanwalt.

Once there was another view of the evidence, it was demonstrated that I was passing in a passing zone, was at the most 2km over the speed limit, and there was sufficient room to pass.

I accepted the new charge of an error in judgment, which was true, I should have run the Porsche into the ditch instead of hitting the 3er head on.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
I've experienced the German legal system since I totaled a car over there in 1989.

It is very interesting. They gather the data/evidence and make a ruling. If you don't agree, you can go to court.


That's right, the police will file a report based on witness accounts and forensic evidence. The involved insurance companies will in the case of larger accidents send investigators. Guilt is assigned (it's often split between the involved parties) and unless criminal intent or gross negligence is involved there will be no court or any lawsuits involved.

While your insurance company will generally be on your side and use their accident investigators to help you as much as possible, it is advisable to have "legal protection insurance" (Rechtschutzversicherung). It is an inexpensive insurance, and if you are a member or a motoring club like the ADAC, then this type insurance, which will aid you in legal matters related to accidents, is included in the annual membership fee.

You couldn't beat a 924? My Scirocco ate those for breakfast!

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
He said that if you run a red light in Germany ..that the girl sitting next to you in the car had better be your wife or daughter ..since when the ticket arrives in the mail, some 3 angle shot is there for anyone who opens the letter to see just who was there.


The hearsay stories never stop. A copy of the picture is given to you only if you demand to see it. It is not mailed to you by default.


I guess he lied. By the way, how old were you in 1975, mori? He wasn't the only military personnel to assert ..err..lie to me about this.

 

[moribundman]

I didn't say he lied. You just left out information (That the G.I. was talking about other G.I.s and not about just anyone, and that this occurred 33 years ago), so the blame lies squarely at your feet for making a claim, which you, possibly without intent, misrepresented as a general rule while it was actually an exception to what applied to the public at large.

As for personal questions regarding me, cut it out, since it's absolutely NOYFB.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I've experienced the German legal system since I totaled a car over there in 1989.

It is very interesting. They gather the data/evidence and make a ruling. If you don't agree, you can go to court.


That's right, the police will file a report based on witness accounts and forensic evidence. The involved insurance companies will in the case of larger accidents send investigators. Guilt is assigned (it's often split between the involved parties) and unless criminal intent or gross negligence is involved there will be no court or any lawsuits involved.


There didn't have to be a lawsuit in this case either, but since I didn't want to lose my license for the remainder of my tour, and the investigators got the information so obviously wrong, (after all, how could experts not notice that it was a passing zone with sufficient space to pass a car that does not accelerate?) that it was worth my time and money to take the case to court.
Quote:


While your insurance company will generally be on your side and use their accident investigators to help you as much as possible, it is advisable to have "legal protection insurance" (Rechtschutzversicherung). It is an inexpensive insurance, and if you are a member or a motoring club like the ADAC, then this type insurance, which will aid you in legal matters related to accidents, is included in the annual membership fee.


Hind sight is 20/20, I now know this.

Ironically, (or not) the driver of the 3er was responsible for his own injuries since he didn't wear his seatbelt. So while I (my insurance) paid for his car, I was not charged with his injuries. That shared liability thing.
Quote:


You couldn't beat a 924? My Scirocco ate those for breakfast!


Not with the 88 having the 2.8L pushrod V6, and the decreasing room. For what it's worth, I was gaining on the 924, just not fast enough to clear it and miss the 3er. The '90 GTZ with the 2.3L Quad 4 was much faster.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have purchased a Corvette before I shipped out the Germany, and sold it there to a collector who wanted a US spec (for whatever reason) and then purchased a BMW and brought that back home.

Anyway, back to the topic

 

[moribundman]

Sure, sometimes you have to fight and take it to court. It's your right.

If you hit the 3er head-on and all of you lived to tell, you guys couldn't have been going all that fast, I suppose?

 

[javacontour]

Probably max speed was 102km/h in a 100km/h zone, and I was on the brakes (so was Mr 924 at this time, so we were doing our own little dance) so I was probably down to 60-70km/hour at the time of impact.

I suspect the 3er was going about the same at impact, as we were doing our own dance.

(Think of that door way dance, but at 60-100km/h and in vehicles.)

 

[moribundman]

You all were very lucky.

 

[javacontour]

Yes we all were. I'm alot smarter at 43 than I was at 23

 

[Tosh]

Originally Posted By: SecondMonkey
Shortly after it was installed, I took off both my license plates, and purposely (and safely) went through a red light with my middle finger waving.

Sure you did. And I suppose there's a photo of this somewhere?

 

[moribundman]

Back in about '93, I saw a photo in the newspaper that had been taken by a "red light camera" in my hometown. The driver had put on a pig mask and kept running the light until the film (back then they still used film) was full. This was easily doable in my hometown, which was small and with barely any traffic in the early morning hours. Everybody, including the cops were laughing about this incident. They never caught the guy.

 

[Shannow]

Better half is renewing her driving licence at present.

She always reads the "fine print" before signing anything, and brought this out for me to read...thought it would add to some of the previous discussion

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
As for personal questions regarding me, cut it out, since it's absolutely NOYFB.


I was just curious. I was just taking interest in your formative years. It wasn't necessarily related to the topic at hand. I mean, we're all pals here, right? Just figured we'd have some quality time while I had your attention ...some BITOG male bonding, if you will.

Remember ... I care