The Powerful Japanese V6

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I'm looking at my latest issue of Consumer Reports:

2007 Infinity G35 3.5L V6 306 hp
2007 Lexus ES350 3.5L V6 272 hp
2007 Nissan Maxima 3.5L V6 255 hp
2007 Buick Lucerne 4.6L V8 275 hp

What makes the Japanese V6 engines so powerful given their smaller displacement compared to the larger GM Northstar V8?
 
What are the torque specs?
Having not looked at torque yet I would be tempted to wager that the Buick would win hands down.
And superior torque is a driveability factor.
If the imports are ahead in both torque and HP I'll shut up... well temporarily.

Rickey
 
Here is a description of the 306 hp Lexus IS350 engine (3.5L V6) as written up by Edmund's. Basically, it is state-of-the-art technology for its price range:

The 3.5-liter V6 has everything from dual VVTi (meaning both the intake and exhaust valve timing can be varied) to roller rockers to direct fuel injectors. The direct fuel injectors are backed up by port fuel injectors that can further improve cold weather starting and fuel economy while also reducing emissions. All of these systems work together to give the engine a broad, flat power band from idle to redline.
 
Without looking more at the numbers, I imagine its becuase these engines are revving higher.

Horsepower = (Torque X RPM) / 5252.

So the higher your torque peak, the more horsepower you're going to get. Look at a Honda S2000 Versus a Diesel engine. The S2000 makes (made in 2000?) 240hp at 8200 RPM but had something like 160lbs/ft of torque at 6000+ rpm. A diesel makes tons of torque at low RPM, so no matter what, it's horsepower number will be lower. The same with a big-displacement engine tuned for low-end torque.

It's an oversimplification but think of torque as the amount of work an engine can do and horsepower is how quickly it can do it. An S2000 can do a very small amount of work VERY quickly (running around a track at high speed- but pulling a trailer it'd be worthless). A semi-truck can do LOTS of work very slowly (going slow up mountain passes loaded with 40k lbs- but on a race track it'd be worthless)

I'm thinking the Buick is the same deal. It isn't going to rev to 7000 rpm, it makes alot of torque at low rpm, peaks out early, and thus has a low horsepower number. I bet in daily driving however, the Buick will feel faster off the line and have a great 60 foot time (depending on gearing) while the imports will bog off the line and really come to life after 4000 rpm. I think it depends on the demographic of the buyer and engine tuning. They could probably make that Buick engine a high-revving screamer, but the average Buick buyer probably doesn't want that. I, personally, like european engine setups; ok low-end, GREAT mid-range, good top end.

You can't just look at horsepower numbers, even though that's all most people do. Really, in the greater scheme of things, they're almost worthless...
 
Exactly,

The numbers cited are peaks. What often matters is not only torque, but what does the torque curve look like.

It's nice when you have a nice big and flat torque curve, so you have that power across a broad range of engine speeds.

It's a matter of preference. I've owned one V8 engine, a 4.6L Ford. Everything else I've owned has been 3.8L or less, and often under 3L with multiple valves, OHC, etc.

It's a matter of preference.
 
Also, another almost useless factoid. If you look at the displacement in cubic inches of most naturally aspirated engines, you'll find that you'll usually have 1.0 to 1.3 lbs/ft of toque per cubic inch of displacement... (so, a good VERY rough estimate is 1lb-ft of torque for cu in of displacement) Just for future reference
cheers.gif
 
Ford took an interesting approach to the Mustang in 1986 that #@$%! off a lot of loyalists, but actually helped performance if people stopped looking at hp / tq numbers. They lowered the hp from 210 to 200 on the 1986 GT, but revamped timing so the torque curve ramped up earlier in the rev range, so the 1986 actually outran the 1985 in 0-60 and 1/4 mile times...in essense doing more and working less. It's a good point when comparing Japanese and American iron (or aluminum, as the case may be).
 
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You can't just look at horsepower numbers, even though that's all most people do. Really, in the greater scheme of things, they're almost worthless...




Yep, most of the buying public is a bunch of tools with no real analytical ability. If our hypothesis that the average import buyer is more of an appliance buyer, that uses bigger is better numbers as a metric, then this all makes sense.

What I know is that my saab, which makes 195 lb-ft of torque with a flat curve from off fast idle is VERY nice to drive, compared to more peakier engines, which require more RPMs or more displacement. That is why the imports need to make bigger and newer engne designs that integrate all sorts of advanced and fancy gadgetry in their operation and controls, whereas the 3.8L GM 'gem' has been able to offer superior economy, torque and power density overall, for nearly ever.

Comparisson is worthless, I agree. It is preference that is name of the game, which is why you cant numbers compare, but must test what appeals to your open mind.

JMH
 
I would never shop for a car based on it's numbers...some of the fastest cars in the world are butt ugly and hard to get along with on a daily basis, IMO and who wants to drive an uncomfortable eyesore? When I car shop, I find something made by what I've observed to be a reputable automaker that's pleasing to the eye - then buy the highest performance version of it. :-)
 
remember also, these are peak numbers. I'm willing the bet the V8 torque curve is more linear. THose V6's are getting pretty big and are matching, if not surpassing, the V8 in fuel consumption
 
Toyota Tundra 4.7 V8 - 271hp
Buick Enclave 3.6 V6 - 275hp

Do you see how useless these comparisons are. You can't compare different vehicles in different classes that are aimed at different buyers. Of course an old school northstar in a buick isn't going to be a tuned as a weekend racer. They're supposed to be smooth and quiet. Thats what a buick owner wants, not the highest peak hp.
 
Throw that Enclave 3.6L V6 into the mix from the original post and it's competetive for its size, no matter what vehicle is wrapped around it.

Imagine if that Toyota 4.7L V8 was tuned to the point of these 3.5L V6s, it'd be making, what 500hp?
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Yep, most of the buying public is a bunch of tools with no real analytical ability. If our hypothesis that the average import buyer is more of an appliance buyer, that uses bigger is better numbers as a metric, then this all makes sense.

What I know is that my saab, which makes 195 lb-ft of torque with a flat curve from off fast idle is VERY nice to drive, compared to more peakier engines, which require more RPMs or more displacement. That is why the imports need to make bigger and newer engne designs that integrate all sorts of advanced and fancy gadgetry in their operation and controls, whereas the 3.8L GM 'gem' has been able to offer superior economy, torque and power density overall, for nearly ever.

Comparisson is worthless, I agree. It is preference that is name of the game, which is why you cant numbers compare, but must test what appeals to your open mind.

JMH




So you are essentially arguing that the imports MUST resort to the use of all-aluminum blocks with iron-lined cylinders, resin-coated pistons, dual VVT, direct fuel injection, coolant passages between the cylinders, and so on and so forth simply to try and compete with GM's antiquated 3.8L V6.

I'd give their engineers a little more credit than that.

I also disagree with "our" hypothesis that the average import buyer is more of an appliance buyer. I think it depends on the model. A Camry or Accord buyer is no more of an appliance buyer than a Malibu or Taurus buyer, and a Corolla or Civic buyer is no more of a "tool" than a Focus or Cobalt buyer.
 
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Imagine if that Toyota 4.7L V8 was tuned to the point of these 3.5L V6s, it'd be making, what 500hp?
smile.gif





Exactly my point. That same northstar in a sports car (xlr) makes 320 and thats still mild because if you really want a powerful xlr you get the supercharged version.
 
It doesnt matter who the buyer is, people buying cars are generally tools who don't understand much beyond comparing numbers without necessarily having a good grasp of their meaning.

Unfortunately the stereotype of the typical import buyer (which does have some validity, though you are correct, is an analog to many a buyer of other vehicles) is someone who wants a vehicle that they can drive from A-B, without giving them any problems, and gets the job done. Heck, why else has Mazda been successful with their "zoom zoom" campaign? because the average camry or accord (or taurus, malibu, etc) is not just a commodity appliance?

Now lets go back in time... for how long has GM made 3.8L v6 engines that provide economy nicely over 30 MPG, while providing decent power and a heack of a lot of torque? Years and years?

Competition is good, S&T and advancements are good too. But, companies are out to do one thing - sell cars. They advance their technology base not for the good of the population, but for their profit. 120hp moves a car just fine... but if a competitor is offering 130, average joe WILL buy the higher number, feeling they get better value.

And then all of a sudden we start putting out enormous HP numbers, v8-esque fuel economy, but since HP is higher and number of cylinders is lower, mr or ms. non-analytical decides from the most basic information that the product is better, and then a car sells.

The problem is that people are too stupid to do real analysis. heck, the average high school kid frowns at the thought of taking pre-calculus. That really is a shame.

Unfortunately, any of these number games are merely to appeal to the vast majority of people who really cannot analyze things well. Technology? great. What is it worth? Nothing if it doesnt result in sales. Why does Honda do F1? For their own good? nope, for sales.

So guess what, a 3800 V6 is a darn good driving experience in nearly any platform it is put in. But guess what? at 210 hp or whatnot, its numbers can easily be trumped, and then those numbers on paper is what really wins. Remember, most folks cannot analyze things properly. So what do other manufacturers do? invent schemes (tech is good schemes are bad) to show higher numbers for the sake of selling cars. is the number any more valuable or better than the 210 in the 3800? Not necessarily. But its a bigger number, and so it looks better to the non-analytical buyer.

There is a reason why a base 3-series BMW wins in comparissons against much more advanced, higher powered alternatives. It is the package. It is the feel. It is also the reason why a base Porsche is a far superior ride to its 'alternatives', though they may be superior on paper from number comparisson. It is also why these cars sell out without issue. They have good products without resorting to reporting ever higher numbers for non-analytical buyers.

Is the technology that comes along great? ABSOLUTELY.
Is it all necessary? Not necessarily.
Is it enhancing efficiency? Nope, not for its early or most follow-on insertions.

OK, for 275 hp, maybe it allows the manufacturer to make a more power-dense product. Wahoo... what does it do for me? As power density increases, longevity generally decreases, without substantial metalurgical and chemical advances.

So I still maintain that most of these moves are purely to sell more cars to the non-analytical public, with negligible REAL value obtained from the process.

JMH
 
The new 3.5 G35 and 3.5 IS350 engines are the best NA V6 motors... ever. The IS350 motor is more maxxed out since it has direct injection and much higher compression pistons than the G35 motor. The 2008 G37 coupe has a 3.7 with 330hp and it doesn't even have direct injection or the same compression pistons as the IS350 motor. With that said, both GM and Ford can build such motors, GM has their 3.6 DOHC motor tuned to 300hp with direct injection... What matters as far as acceleration goes is torque at the wheels and rpm. You want your engine to make torque at the highest RPM possible so you can take advantage of gearing (F1 motors is the best example).
 
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