Tesla...

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Last year Tesla made a roughly $150 million killing from selling ZEV credits. That’s up from $130 million in 2013, $32 million in 2012, and $3 million in 2011. All told in 2014 Tesla sold about $216 million in credits...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-tesla-paradox-1423786534

It's all over the net. Quit impugning the messenger when it's a hard fact in writing from several sources. Pick one you like...


On revenue of 5.6 billion 216 million is 3.86% of the total. That's hardly a majority of their earnings as you stated previously.

Questioning what I'm being told is hardly impugning the messenger. Question Authority. Do it early and often.

Questioning the findings of Cato Institute which is arguably in business to keep entrenched powers in power and does so at the expense of the citizens and the environment I do to arrive at the truth.


Revenues are not earnings...

 

[SteveSRT8]

In 2013, ZEV credits to Tesla totaled $129.8 million — to a company that lost $61.3 million for the year on its actual manufacturing and selling operations.

In 2014, Nevada lavished the company with one of the biggest corporate-welfare packages in history: In exchange for building a battery-manufacturing facility near Reno, Tesla will pay no payroll or property taxes for ten years and no sales taxes for 20 years, and will receive $195 million in cash via “transferable tax credits,” which can be sold to other companies to satisfy their Nevada tax bills. All of this amounts to a $1.3 billion giveaway.

Tesla and its apologists constantly tout the fact that the company paid off its hefty $465 million taxpayer-subsidized loan from the Department of Energy early, but they don’t explain why: Had the loan not been paid early, the U.S. Treasury stood to grab a significant portion of the company’s increased stock price by exercising warrants. Capitalizing on the subsidy-stoked electric-car mania that pumped its stock to record levels, Tesla issued $450 million in new stock to pay the loan early and cancel those warrants. The shrewd deal cost taxpayers about a billion dollars, leading Scott Woolley to conclude: “Tesla is worse than Solyndra.”

Every time a Tesla is sold, we witness a transfer of wealth to a rich hobbyist (most Teslas are their owners’ third or fourth car), while average Americans are on the hook for at least $30,000 in federal and state subsidies. Tesla is more a regulatory arbitrageur than an auto manufacturer.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/397162/tesla-and-its-subsidies-phil-kerpen

Somehow I feel certain that Mr. Skinner won't like these facts either....

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Last year Tesla made a roughly $150 million killing from selling ZEV credits.

I've always said that "cap and trade" and its ilk are simply "bait and switch."

 

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


In 2014, Nevada lavished the company with one of the biggest corporate-welfare packages in history: In exchange for building a battery-manufacturing facility near Reno, Tesla will pay no payroll or property taxes for ten years and no sales taxes for 20 years, and will receive $195 million in cash via “transferable tax credits,” which can be sold to other companies to satisfy their Nevada tax bills. All of this amounts to a $1.3 billion giveaway.


How much money and tax credits Boeing got from Washington state to get the 777X build in its state?

All big companies play this game, and all states do it as it is YOUR money, not THEM.

Just in the Montreal area, in the last three years, we lost several companies which were literally bought by US states to close here and create new factories in their states.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


In 2014, Nevada lavished the company with one of the biggest corporate-welfare packages in history: In exchange for building a battery-manufacturing facility near Reno, Tesla will pay no payroll or property taxes for ten years and no sales taxes for 20 years, and will receive $195 million in cash via “transferable tax credits,” which can be sold to other companies to satisfy their Nevada tax bills. All of this amounts to a $1.3 billion giveaway.


How much money and tax credits Boeing got from Washington state to get the 777X build in its state?

All big companies play this game, and all states do it as it is YOUR money, not THEM.

Just in the Montreal area, in the last three years, we lost several companies which were literally bought by US states to close here and create new factories in their states.


While I am in absolute agreement with you the subject here was Tesla. The list of crony capitalists would be too long to print!

 

[surfstar]

If Tesla is playing the same game as Big Oil and Big Auto - at least they're trying to develop new tech that will lower emissions and dependence on fossil fuels with our taxes!

Makes more sense than subsidizing ethanol for fuel.

Hydrogen fuel cells (which seem like a waste of time, money, and development) also get gov't cash.

One of these will be a significant part of our future transportation. ICE is such an old design, with nearly no room left for improvement. Its time to create something better.

 

[RoadRaceJosh]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/397162/tesla-and-its-subsidies-phil-kerpen

Somehow I feel certain that Mr. Skinner won't like these facts either....


I love how the article starts out: "Most of the taxpayers who are subsidizing Tesla cars cannot afford to buy one." That most tax payers can't afford a thing means what exactly? That it's an expensive thing. Let us not forget that most yachts are written off as second homes. Anyone here able to afford an 80+' yacht? How do you feel about that subsidy?

It appears, Steve, that you take issue with subsidies. It is my sincere hope that the subsidies Tesla Motors collects do more for people and the environment than many of the other subsidies we tax payers shoulder like the F-35 or nuclear weapons or flood insurance.

A well known economist has advocated for eliminating corporate income taxes. Many corporations don't pay them anyway. The tax burden would be on those receiving dividends from the company, in other words, the stock holders. And those dividends would be taxed at their personal/family income tax rate. We're already moving that way with all the hand outs/tax exemptions. The workers are going to be taxed and Nevada's tax revenue is likely to go up from the factory being there.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
How do you feel about that subsidy?

It appears, Steve, that you take issue with subsidies. It is my sincere hope that the subsidies Tesla Motors collects do more for people and the environment than many of the other subsidies we tax payers shoulder like the F-35 or nuclear weapons or flood insurance.


My feelings are simply that the Government has a long and illustrious history of waste and fraud. This seems to be true in the so-called "Green Energy" arena. Central planning is always sketchy when it comes to picking winners in a (semi) capitalist society. I have no desire to go off topic into other areas, as the Gov collected over 3 trillion dollars last year and it still wasn't enough.

This somehow seems quite in line with your earlier comments as to the questioning of authority...

 

[RoadRaceJosh]

Sure, but in the case of the battery plant it was Nevada and not the Federal Government.

I'll happily pay the pittance of my taxes which subsidize green energy over the comparatively massive amount which goes to "defense".

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
I'll happily pay the pittance of my taxes which subsidize green energy over the comparatively massive amount which goes to "defense".


That's what happens when you justify any action by simply comparing it to a much worse one, you will support crime and corruption and even do it happily.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
I'll happily pay the pittance of my taxes which subsidize green energy over the comparatively massive amount which goes to "defense".


That's what happens when you justify any action by simply comparing it to a much worse one, you will support crime and corruption and even do it happily.


So how's this sound? Of all the companies and industries sucking money out of the taxpayers, I am least angered by the renewable energy subsidies. It makes sense to try wean us off the fossil fuel teat as its caused all sorts of death and destruction in the middle east, and may cause far more death and destruction on a global scale if our changing of atmospheric chemistry affects the climate.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Tesla is in business to make money legally. Whatever the maximum incentives/subsidizes they can get legally they would.

Tell me a company refused to accept incentives/subsidizes legally from Federal and/or State(s).

A public company is responsible to make the most money for its share holders, there is no such thing as immoral incentives/subsidizes that a company can get legally from Federal/States.

The finance guys of a company are responsible to minimize tax liability and maximize revenue/income legally, Tesla finance guys are doing great job and they should be rewarded(by Tesla) for the job well done.

For people who think that Tesla took advantage of various incentives/subsidizes from Federal/States programs is not the right way to do business, what would you do if you run similar business ?

 

[Nate1979]

I think that with the cost of development of a new model and the fact that they have so few models to rely on any type of mistake could cause them to be in very bad financial position. If their new one is not a hit they could be in trouble because they have no room to develop another one.

 

[hattaresguy]

Ford, FCA, and GM get a lot of subsidies from the government as well. Why should Tesla not take advantage of what the other auto manufactures get?

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Tesla and its apologists constantly tout the fact that the company paid off its hefty $465 million taxpayer-subsidized loan from the Department of Energy early, but they don’t explain why: Had the loan not been paid early, the U.S. Treasury stood to grab a significant portion of the company’s increased stock price by exercising warrants. Capitalizing on the subsidy-stoked electric-car mania that pumped its stock to record levels, Tesla issued $450 million in new stock to pay the loan early and cancel those warrants. The shrewd deal cost taxpayers about a billion dollars, leading Scott Woolley to conclude: “Tesla is worse than Solyndra.”


I take issue with this paragraph, and specifically the line that I highlighted.

How, if the entire loan was paid in full by Tesla, did the US Taxpayer lose out of 1 Billion US Dollars?

If the US government could have exercised their warrants/options on the stock price, then yes, there could have been a significant windfall that would have lined somebody's pockets, but it's not in any way possible that the US taxpayers lost any money, since all of the loan was repaid in full.

I'm not sure why you have any issue with this at all.
If you had Tesla stock in your portfolio that that point in time, you would have wanted them to pay off the loan, and not have you lose out on your increased return because it went to the US government instead.

It sounds like you're trying to blame them for making a smart business decision.

Who cares?
They borrowed money, and then repaid it in full.

And how exactly does that compare to Solyndra?
How much money did the US taxpayers get back from the $535 million that was loaned to them?
Care to exactly explain to us how Tesla is worse by paying back their loan, in full?

BC.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Try reading more carefully. I did not write the article!

No blame here. I actually like tesla. The article simply points out that if the Govt had kept the warrants they would be worth far more today. That's all. Play in the market much?

Please don't try and make this personal. People hold Musk up like he's some sort of hero when he really just got a sweetheart deal as a part of crony capitalism. He makes a ton of money, but not really from selling cars. He's a media darling and a skilled businessman. I guess you just eat what you're fed.

Business as usual...

 

[surfstar]

Musk doesn't care about money. He wouldn't have started Tesla and SpaceX if he did. He would have sat back and retired on his Paypal cash. Instead he risked it all, trying to start up new companies.

He is trying to change the world. A bit narcissistic, for sure, but it seems like he believes that he is the one to make a big impact. Another Steve Jobs.

 

[hattaresguy]

Musk will go down in history as one of the greatest business leaders of the 21st century.

Its awesome that someone can still emigrate to the US with nothing and go on to build fantastic companies that employee thousands.

People forget Musk could have retired with his $180m after Paypal and done nothing. Instead he risked literally every penny of that and than some to start Tesla, SpaceX, and SolarCity. Their was a point in 2008 where he was considering moving into his in laws basement. I'd imagine after making $180m that was a bitter pill to consider.

Now he is investing in AI research.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Try reading more carefully. I did not write the article!

No blame here. I actually like Tesla. The article simply points out that if the Govt had kept the warrants they would be worth far more today. That's all. Play in the market much?

Please don't try and make this personal. People hold Musk up like he's some sort of hero when he really just got a sweetheart deal as a part of crony capitalism. He makes a ton of money, but not really from selling cars. He's a media darling and a skilled businessman. I guess you just eat what you're fed.

Business as usual...

A simple question for you:

Did Tesla do anything wrong in repay the government loan(with interest) early so they could get back the warrant that can convert to common stock ?

Any other company in similar situation would do any different so that the government would comes out ahead ?

As I said, Tesla didn't do anything illegal or immoral in maximizing their profit, they are in business to earn the most for their investors without violating any law, and they did just that.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

A simple question for you:

Did Tesla do anything wrong in repay the government loan(with interest) early so they could get back the warrant that can convert to common stock ?

Any other company in similar situation would do any different so that the government would comes out ahead ?

As I said, Tesla didn't do anything illegal or immoral in maximizing their profit, they are in business to earn the most for their investors without violating any law, and they did just that.



A simple answer: No, and No.