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"Indict a ham sandwich" remains on the menu.
Tesla vs Porsche...
- Thread starter JeffKeryk
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by KrisZ
VWs diesel gate was not about protecting the public, if it was Takata executives would be in jail long time ago.
VW, however, was flatly refusing to back up EVs as viable and were opposed to the idea. And being one of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world, their opinion about EVs carried over to others.
Now look how their stance has changed 180.
As much as I like Tesla as cars, EVs are not the answer to a greener future.
Lest we forget the container ship industry:
Quote
As more evidence points to the risks of burning bunker fuel, the global maritime industry is embarking on a major overhaul of its fuel supply. Starting January 1, 2020, the International Maritime Organization (IMO) will require that all fuels used in ships contain no more than 0.5 percent sulfur. The cap is a significant reduction from the existing sulfur limit of 3.5 percent and is well below the industry average of 2.7 percent sulfur content. Public health experts estimate that once the 2020 sulfur cap takes effect, it would prevent roughly 150,000 premature deaths and 7.6 million childhood asthma cases globally each year.
and:
Quote
Roughly 70 percent of the maritime industry's emissions occur within 250 miles of land, exposing hundreds of millions of people to harmful pollutants. Yet cargo ships, tucked within industrial ports or cruising far offshore, are often out of sight, leaving the public oblivious to the health hazards posed by shipping emissions. Sulfur oxides (SOx) can harm people's respiratory systems and cause breathing difficulties, particularly for children, older adults, and asthma sufferers. Sulfur pollution also contributes to airborne particulate matter (PM), the tiny particles that enter the bloodstream and damage the lungs and heart. That can lead to heart attacks, aggravated asthma, increased hospital admissions, and premature deaths.
Chronic exposure to shipping-related fine particulate emissions results in about 400,000 premature deaths each year from lung cancer and cardiovascular disease, according to a 2018 study. Among children, acute exposure to ship emissions contributes to roughly 14 million asthma cases annually, researchers from the United States and Finland said.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/at-last-the-shipping-industry-begins-cleaning-up-its-dirty-fuels
also from the same article, this "solution" seems a bit shady:
Quote
Around 10 to 15 percent of ships are projected to keep burning high-sulfur fuels and install scrubber systems, which capture SOx and fine particulate emissions before they escape exhaust funnels.
Scrubbers allow companies to keep using cheap bunker fuel, but the technology can have drawbacks, beyond the high upfront cost. Some models require significant power and freshwater supplies to operate. The collected pollution must be neutralized and dispersed into the ocean or deposited on land.
This is a good slideshow presentation on shipping emissions and touches specifically on NOx on page 20:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-10/documents/yang_mobile.pdf
Compare these limits:
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2019/09/full-21028-36166-screen_shot_2019_09_09_at_11.18.12_am.png "[Linked Image]")
To the ones for trucks and busses:
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2019/09/full-21028-36167-screen_shot_2019_09_09_at_11.20.12_am.png "[Linked Image]")
Even a Euro I diesel truck from 1992 has half the NOx emissions of a modern Tier 2 compliant bunker burner.
VWs diesel gate was not about protecting the public, if it was Takata executives would be in jail long time ago.
VW, however, was flatly refusing to back up EVs as viable and were opposed to the idea. And being one of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world, their opinion about EVs carried over to others.
Now look how their stance has changed 180.
As much as I like Tesla as cars, EVs are not the answer to a greener future.
Lest we forget the container ship industry:
Quote
As more evidence points to the risks of burning bunker fuel, the global maritime industry is embarking on a major overhaul of its fuel supply. Starting January 1, 2020, the International Maritime Organization (IMO) will require that all fuels used in ships contain no more than 0.5 percent sulfur. The cap is a significant reduction from the existing sulfur limit of 3.5 percent and is well below the industry average of 2.7 percent sulfur content. Public health experts estimate that once the 2020 sulfur cap takes effect, it would prevent roughly 150,000 premature deaths and 7.6 million childhood asthma cases globally each year.
and:
Quote
Roughly 70 percent of the maritime industry's emissions occur within 250 miles of land, exposing hundreds of millions of people to harmful pollutants. Yet cargo ships, tucked within industrial ports or cruising far offshore, are often out of sight, leaving the public oblivious to the health hazards posed by shipping emissions. Sulfur oxides (SOx) can harm people's respiratory systems and cause breathing difficulties, particularly for children, older adults, and asthma sufferers. Sulfur pollution also contributes to airborne particulate matter (PM), the tiny particles that enter the bloodstream and damage the lungs and heart. That can lead to heart attacks, aggravated asthma, increased hospital admissions, and premature deaths.
Chronic exposure to shipping-related fine particulate emissions results in about 400,000 premature deaths each year from lung cancer and cardiovascular disease, according to a 2018 study. Among children, acute exposure to ship emissions contributes to roughly 14 million asthma cases annually, researchers from the United States and Finland said.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/at-last-the-shipping-industry-begins-cleaning-up-its-dirty-fuels
also from the same article, this "solution" seems a bit shady:
Quote
Around 10 to 15 percent of ships are projected to keep burning high-sulfur fuels and install scrubber systems, which capture SOx and fine particulate emissions before they escape exhaust funnels.
Scrubbers allow companies to keep using cheap bunker fuel, but the technology can have drawbacks, beyond the high upfront cost. Some models require significant power and freshwater supplies to operate. The collected pollution must be neutralized and dispersed into the ocean or deposited on land.
This is a good slideshow presentation on shipping emissions and touches specifically on NOx on page 20:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-10/documents/yang_mobile.pdf
Compare these limits:
To the ones for trucks and busses:
Even a Euro I diesel truck from 1992 has half the NOx emissions of a modern Tier 2 compliant bunker burner.
Yup, absolutely right Overkill. NIMBY at its finest. Same goes for rare earth mines in China and Africa that devastate local environments and will have a long lasting effects afterwards too.
Originally Posted by Ws6
The court system has very little to do with morality...
Now, what point, specifically, are you saying I'm wrong about? That I dont feel VW harmed consumers? I still dont feel they did, enough to raise my ire. I mean, we can argue that everyone harms people to a certain extent and just refuse to buy anything. I guess what I'm saying is sure, they produce emissions. Actually, Jeep, hyundai, and many others also were shown to be producing high levels of NOx...levels arbitrarily decided on by a court, not that others didnt also produce them, just that they crossed the magic threshold.
Because you dont know or dont agree how bad it was, or dont believe anyone can accurately tell - you can confidently make the statement they did nothing to jeopardize public safety?
Their threshold gap was 10-40X the compliance number - not trivial.
Mcdonalds never claimed to be health food.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
The court system has very little to do with morality...
Now, what point, specifically, are you saying I'm wrong about? That I dont feel VW harmed consumers? I still dont feel they did, enough to raise my ire. I mean, we can argue that everyone harms people to a certain extent and just refuse to buy anything. I guess what I'm saying is sure, they produce emissions. Actually, Jeep, hyundai, and many others also were shown to be producing high levels of NOx...levels arbitrarily decided on by a court, not that others didnt also produce them, just that they crossed the magic threshold.
Because you dont know or dont agree how bad it was, or dont believe anyone can accurately tell - you can confidently make the statement they did nothing to jeopardize public safety?
Their threshold gap was 10-40X the compliance number - not trivial.
Mcdonalds never claimed to be health food.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Last edited:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
OK...
Please get back to flaming me for buying a Model 3.
Behave!
Please get back to flaming me for buying a Model 3.
Behave!
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
The court system has very little to do with morality...
Now, what point, specifically, are you saying I'm wrong about? That I dont feel VW harmed consumers? I still dont feel they did, enough to raise my ire. I mean, we can argue that everyone harms people to a certain extent and just refuse to buy anything. I guess what I'm saying is sure, they produce emissions. Actually, Jeep, hyundai, and many others also were shown to be producing high levels of NOx...levels arbitrarily decided on by a court, not that others didnt also produce them, just that they crossed the magic threshold.
Because you dont know or dont agree how bad it was, or dont believe anyone can accurately tell - you can confidently make the statement they did nothing to jeopardize public safety?
Their threshold gap was 10-40X the compliance number - not trivial.
Mcdonalds never claimed to be health food.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Compliance with some random number, and last I checked, heart disease was more of a problem than NOx. Paint it how you want, McDonalds has filled more graves.
Originally Posted by Ws6
The court system has very little to do with morality...
Now, what point, specifically, are you saying I'm wrong about? That I dont feel VW harmed consumers? I still dont feel they did, enough to raise my ire. I mean, we can argue that everyone harms people to a certain extent and just refuse to buy anything. I guess what I'm saying is sure, they produce emissions. Actually, Jeep, hyundai, and many others also were shown to be producing high levels of NOx...levels arbitrarily decided on by a court, not that others didnt also produce them, just that they crossed the magic threshold.
Because you dont know or dont agree how bad it was, or dont believe anyone can accurately tell - you can confidently make the statement they did nothing to jeopardize public safety?
Their threshold gap was 10-40X the compliance number - not trivial.
Mcdonalds never claimed to be health food.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Compliance with some random number, and last I checked, heart disease was more of a problem than NOx. Paint it how you want, McDonalds has filled more graves.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
Exactly! Steal a penny or a million its still a crime and depending on where you live they may not differentiate between the two and cut your hands off anyway.
Lunacy knows no boundaries.
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
Exactly! Steal a penny or a million its still a crime and depending on where you live they may not differentiate between the two and cut your hands off anyway.
Lunacy knows no boundaries.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
This pollution discussion isnt about the various sources of emissions but about Tela Vs Porsche and the claim that Tesla is a " bad" company.
Then a later assertion that VW didnt jeopardize public safety implication being Tesla did - which I see as the exact opposite.
Bringing shipping emissions into a porsche (VW) v Tesla thread isnt the topic.
UD
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
This pollution discussion isnt about the various sources of emissions but about Tela Vs Porsche and the claim that Tesla is a " bad" company.
Then a later assertion that VW didnt jeopardize public safety implication being Tesla did - which I see as the exact opposite.
Bringing shipping emissions into a porsche (VW) v Tesla thread isnt the topic.
UD
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
The court system has very little to do with morality...
Now, what point, specifically, are you saying I'm wrong about? That I dont feel VW harmed consumers? I still dont feel they did, enough to raise my ire. I mean, we can argue that everyone harms people to a certain extent and just refuse to buy anything. I guess what I'm saying is sure, they produce emissions. Actually, Jeep, hyundai, and many others also were shown to be producing high levels of NOx...levels arbitrarily decided on by a court, not that others didnt also produce them, just that they crossed the magic threshold.
Because you dont know or dont agree how bad it was, or dont believe anyone can accurately tell - you can confidently make the statement they did nothing to jeopardize public safety?
Their threshold gap was 10-40X the compliance number - not trivial.
Mcdonalds never claimed to be health food.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Compliance with some random number, and last I checked, heart disease was more of a problem than NOx. Paint it how you want, McDonalds has filled more graves.
The number wasnt " random" it was the number everyone else had to hit which VW missed by 10-40X then lied about.
What Mcdonalds, burger king, or Maersk shipping claimed, lied about, or did, is simply not germaine to VW being dishonest and negatively impacting public health.
I know- the #$%$#@ Germans got nothing to do with it.
UD
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
The court system has very little to do with morality...
Now, what point, specifically, are you saying I'm wrong about? That I dont feel VW harmed consumers? I still dont feel they did, enough to raise my ire. I mean, we can argue that everyone harms people to a certain extent and just refuse to buy anything. I guess what I'm saying is sure, they produce emissions. Actually, Jeep, hyundai, and many others also were shown to be producing high levels of NOx...levels arbitrarily decided on by a court, not that others didnt also produce them, just that they crossed the magic threshold.
Because you dont know or dont agree how bad it was, or dont believe anyone can accurately tell - you can confidently make the statement they did nothing to jeopardize public safety?
Their threshold gap was 10-40X the compliance number - not trivial.
Mcdonalds never claimed to be health food.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Compliance with some random number, and last I checked, heart disease was more of a problem than NOx. Paint it how you want, McDonalds has filled more graves.
The number wasnt " random" it was the number everyone else had to hit which VW missed by 10-40X then lied about.
What Mcdonalds, burger king, or Maersk shipping claimed, lied about, or did, is simply not germaine to VW being dishonest and negatively impacting public health.
I know- the #$%$#@ Germans got nothing to do with it.
UD
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
This pollution isnt about the various sources of emissions but about Tela Vs Porsche and the claim that Tesla is a " bad" company.
Then a later assertion that VW didnt jeopardize public safety implication being Tesla did - which I see as the exact opposite.
Bringing shipping emissions into a porsche (VW) v Tesla thread isnt the topic.
UD
The point is, the purported level of "public endangerment" committed by VW not complying with the newest emissions standards pales in comparison with what is being dumped into our air from other sources, like the shipping industry, so I think this is a really poor angle to attack this from. They broke the law, and were charged accordingly, trying to single them out as jeopardizing public safety requires one to intentionally omit all the other, much larger, sources of pollution doing the same thing, and on a much larger scale. That really can't be done.
And while I understand your reluctance to allow emissions from other sources to be rolled into this discussion as you don't feel they are suitably germane, I believe they really do work to provide some necessary perspective here as to the level of "public endangerment" being offered up by the offending VW products when compared to other fossil consumers operating in and around the same areas, including OTR trucks, planes and of course ships burning bunker. It's like saying a guy that smoked 1/4 pack of Ultralights a week got lung cancer from smoking while ignoring the fact he worked unprotected around asbestos every day.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
This pollution isnt about the various sources of emissions but about Tela Vs Porsche and the claim that Tesla is a " bad" company.
Then a later assertion that VW didnt jeopardize public safety implication being Tesla did - which I see as the exact opposite.
Bringing shipping emissions into a porsche (VW) v Tesla thread isnt the topic.
UD
The point is, the purported level of "public endangerment" committed by VW not complying with the newest emissions standards pales in comparison with what is being dumped into our air from other sources, like the shipping industry, so I think this is a really poor angle to attack this from. They broke the law, and were charged accordingly, trying to single them out as jeopardizing public safety requires one to intentionally omit all the other, much larger, sources of pollution doing the same thing, and on a much larger scale. That really can't be done.
And while I understand your reluctance to allow emissions from other sources to be rolled into this discussion as you don't feel they are suitably germane, I believe they really do work to provide some necessary perspective here as to the level of "public endangerment" being offered up by the offending VW products when compared to other fossil consumers operating in and around the same areas, including OTR trucks, planes and of course ships burning bunker. It's like saying a guy that smoked 1/4 pack of Ultralights a week got lung cancer from smoking while ignoring the fact he worked unprotected around asbestos every day.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
This pollution isnt about the various sources of emissions but about Tela Vs Porsche and the claim that Tesla is a " bad" company.
Then a later assertion that VW didnt jeopardize public safety implication being Tesla did - which I see as the exact opposite.
Bringing shipping emissions into a porsche (VW) v Tesla thread isnt the topic.
UD
The point is, the purported level of "public endangerment" committed by VW not complying with the newest emissions standards pales in comparison with what is being dumped into our air from other sources, like the shipping industry, so I think this is a really poor angle to attack this from. They broke the law, and were charged accordingly, trying to single them out as jeopardizing public safety requires one to intentionally omit all the other, much larger, sources of pollution doing the same thing, and on a much larger scale. That really can't be done.
And while I understand your reluctance to allow emissions from other sources to be rolled into this discussion as you don't feel they are suitably germane, I believe they really do work to provide some necessary perspective here as to the level of "public endangerment" being offered up by the offending VW products when compared to other fossil consumers operating in and around the same areas, including OTR trucks, planes and of course ships burning bunker. It's like saying a guy that smoked 1/4 pack of Ultralights a week got lung cancer from smoking while ignoring the fact he worked unprotected around asbestos every day.
Start a thread about public endangerment and we can discuss where VW falls on the scale.
Lets not pretend VW helped the environment or public health with their scandal, nor that these are honest and forthright guys.
VW not Tesla is being fined BILLIONS for this. Talking about McDonalds and shipping is simply obfuscation.
UD
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Sure, VW took to measures to cheat emissions standards and was (rightly) prosecuted for doing so, but those standards are massively more strict than those imposed on bunker burning ships. So to claim that VW endangered X number of lives while ignoring the implications of the grossly more polluting shipping industry seems silly. The issue is that VW cheated, not that they potentially "risked millions" of lives. By that metric air travel and shipping have a far bigger impact on locations that are near their ports of ingress/egress.
This pollution isnt about the various sources of emissions but about Tela Vs Porsche and the claim that Tesla is a " bad" company.
Then a later assertion that VW didnt jeopardize public safety implication being Tesla did - which I see as the exact opposite.
Bringing shipping emissions into a porsche (VW) v Tesla thread isnt the topic.
UD
The point is, the purported level of "public endangerment" committed by VW not complying with the newest emissions standards pales in comparison with what is being dumped into our air from other sources, like the shipping industry, so I think this is a really poor angle to attack this from. They broke the law, and were charged accordingly, trying to single them out as jeopardizing public safety requires one to intentionally omit all the other, much larger, sources of pollution doing the same thing, and on a much larger scale. That really can't be done.
And while I understand your reluctance to allow emissions from other sources to be rolled into this discussion as you don't feel they are suitably germane, I believe they really do work to provide some necessary perspective here as to the level of "public endangerment" being offered up by the offending VW products when compared to other fossil consumers operating in and around the same areas, including OTR trucks, planes and of course ships burning bunker. It's like saying a guy that smoked 1/4 pack of Ultralights a week got lung cancer from smoking while ignoring the fact he worked unprotected around asbestos every day.
Start a thread about public endangerment and we can discuss where VW falls on the scale.
Lets not pretend VW helped the environment or public health with their scandal, nor that these are honest and forthright guys.
VW not Tesla is being fined BILLIONS for this. Talking about McDonalds and shipping is simply obfuscation.
UD
Last edited:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Start a thread about public endangerment and we can discuss where VW falls on the scale.
Lets not pretend VW helped the environment or public health with their scandal, nor that these are honest and forthright guys.
VW not Tesla is being fined BILLIONS for this. Talking about McDonalds and shipping is simply obfuscation.
UD
You'll note I said much earlier that they were RIGHTLY charged. Note the emphasis. I'm not here giving VW the 'ol slap on the back for their actions, simply trying to inject some what appeared to be much needed perspective because of this post:
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Sure it did.
According to the WHO outdoor air pollution causes 4.2M deaths a year.
800K a year in europe which is where the diesel cheats hit the hardest.
From the guardian....
VW's defective vehicles could be responsible for between 237,161 and 948,691 tonnes of NOx emissions each year, 10 to 40 times the pollution standard for new models in the US. Western Europe's biggest power station, Drax in the UK, emits 39,000 tonnes of NOx each year.
This is just on the diesels - the gas cheats haven't been tallied yet.
They didn't cheat a little - they cheated a lot.
UD
10-40x the NOx emissions, if we look at the screencaps I posted earlier, the Euro V limit for heavy diesels, which is more lenient than for passenger vehicles, is 0.4 or 0.46 g/kWh. Let's err on the high side, and multiply that by 40, we end up at 16-18.4. That's the emissions of the current bunker burning ships. They are 40x more polluting than a Euro V compliant heavy duty truck, and that's compliant. And these trucks are more polluting than the passenger cars, so even if VW's actions here increased the emissions levels to be on par with those of the OTR Euro V trucks, they are still cleaner than all the previous generations of trucks and orders of magnitude lower polluting than the ships. So yes, it was bad, and they were rightfully charged, but a modern diesel that might be closer to lorry-level pollution than the same year Mercedes is not giving folks the kiss of death.
The 2011 MANN container ship, Tier 2 compliant, puts out 17.8 g/kWh. It produces 69.68MW; 69,680kW. A container ship takes 25-30 days to get from China to the US; 600-720hrs. Assuming the ship engine is running at around 90% CF for most of the trip, that's 37.7 to 45 million kWh. This yields 671 million to 801 million grams of NOx or 671 to 801 tonnes for one ship for one trip.
The Jetta, the worst offender, had measured emissions at 0.62 g/Km, the limit was 0.18. So, assuming that the average life expectancy of this Jetta is 300,000Km, this yields a per vehicle (LIFETIME) emissions of 186,000 grams of NOx or 0.186 tonnes. This means that it would take the LIFETIME emissions of 3,607 - 4,306 VW Jetta's, that all reached 300,000Km to match the NOx pollution from ONE container ship making ONE trip from China.
But of course we can make this even more fun. The average European drives 13,000Km/year; 1,083Km/month. Using our 30 day figure from earlier, lets see how many VW Jettas it would take to match the emissions of one container ship!
NOx per month for one car: 671.46g; 0.00067146 tonnes.
Number of Jettas driving 1,083Km/month to match the single container ship: 1,192,923.
Start a thread about public endangerment and we can discuss where VW falls on the scale.
Lets not pretend VW helped the environment or public health with their scandal, nor that these are honest and forthright guys.
VW not Tesla is being fined BILLIONS for this. Talking about McDonalds and shipping is simply obfuscation.
UD
You'll note I said much earlier that they were RIGHTLY charged. Note the emphasis. I'm not here giving VW the 'ol slap on the back for their actions, simply trying to inject some what appeared to be much needed perspective because of this post:
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Sure it did.
According to the WHO outdoor air pollution causes 4.2M deaths a year.
800K a year in europe which is where the diesel cheats hit the hardest.
From the guardian....
VW's defective vehicles could be responsible for between 237,161 and 948,691 tonnes of NOx emissions each year, 10 to 40 times the pollution standard for new models in the US. Western Europe's biggest power station, Drax in the UK, emits 39,000 tonnes of NOx each year.
This is just on the diesels - the gas cheats haven't been tallied yet.
They didn't cheat a little - they cheated a lot.
UD
10-40x the NOx emissions, if we look at the screencaps I posted earlier, the Euro V limit for heavy diesels, which is more lenient than for passenger vehicles, is 0.4 or 0.46 g/kWh. Let's err on the high side, and multiply that by 40, we end up at 16-18.4. That's the emissions of the current bunker burning ships. They are 40x more polluting than a Euro V compliant heavy duty truck, and that's compliant. And these trucks are more polluting than the passenger cars, so even if VW's actions here increased the emissions levels to be on par with those of the OTR Euro V trucks, they are still cleaner than all the previous generations of trucks and orders of magnitude lower polluting than the ships. So yes, it was bad, and they were rightfully charged, but a modern diesel that might be closer to lorry-level pollution than the same year Mercedes is not giving folks the kiss of death.
The 2011 MANN container ship, Tier 2 compliant, puts out 17.8 g/kWh. It produces 69.68MW; 69,680kW. A container ship takes 25-30 days to get from China to the US; 600-720hrs. Assuming the ship engine is running at around 90% CF for most of the trip, that's 37.7 to 45 million kWh. This yields 671 million to 801 million grams of NOx or 671 to 801 tonnes for one ship for one trip.
The Jetta, the worst offender, had measured emissions at 0.62 g/Km, the limit was 0.18. So, assuming that the average life expectancy of this Jetta is 300,000Km, this yields a per vehicle (LIFETIME) emissions of 186,000 grams of NOx or 0.186 tonnes. This means that it would take the LIFETIME emissions of 3,607 - 4,306 VW Jetta's, that all reached 300,000Km to match the NOx pollution from ONE container ship making ONE trip from China.
But of course we can make this even more fun. The average European drives 13,000Km/year; 1,083Km/month. Using our 30 day figure from earlier, lets see how many VW Jettas it would take to match the emissions of one container ship!
NOx per month for one car: 671.46g; 0.00067146 tonnes.
Number of Jettas driving 1,083Km/month to match the single container ship: 1,192,923.
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We debate some strange things … I watched Maersk build the last two of 10 ridiculously large container ships … and even knowing they are (relatively speaking) one of the more reputable shippers … it's the mission of these massive ships that avoids the correct "impact" calculations … agendas being the waypoints in the global scheme
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
But of course we can make this even more fun. The average European drives 13,000Km/year; 1,083Km/month. Using our 30 day figure from earlier, lets see how many VW Jettas it would take to match the emissions of one container ship!
NOx per month for one car: 671.46g; 0.00067146 tonnes.
Number of Jettas driving 1,083Km/month to match the single container ship: 1,192,923.
Since VW built 11M offending vehicles enough to circle the globe if stacked end to end thats quite a bit of pollution.
Wouldn't you agree VW isnt improving public safety? They are jeopardizing it especially if compliance would mean 10-40X less NOX.
Rather than focus on that were discussing something else thats bad as well.
You know what else pollutes a lot? Garbage trucks, so do non electric city busses, so do pre emission controlled semis....
But none of that has anything to do with Porsche vs Tesla.
UD
But of course we can make this even more fun. The average European drives 13,000Km/year; 1,083Km/month. Using our 30 day figure from earlier, lets see how many VW Jettas it would take to match the emissions of one container ship!
NOx per month for one car: 671.46g; 0.00067146 tonnes.
Number of Jettas driving 1,083Km/month to match the single container ship: 1,192,923.
Since VW built 11M offending vehicles enough to circle the globe if stacked end to end thats quite a bit of pollution.
Wouldn't you agree VW isnt improving public safety? They are jeopardizing it especially if compliance would mean 10-40X less NOX.
Rather than focus on that were discussing something else thats bad as well.
You know what else pollutes a lot? Garbage trucks, so do non electric city busses, so do pre emission controlled semis....
But none of that has anything to do with Porsche vs Tesla.
UD
Last edited:
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
The court system has very little to do with morality...
Now, what point, specifically, are you saying I'm wrong about? That I dont feel VW harmed consumers? I still dont feel they did, enough to raise my ire. I mean, we can argue that everyone harms people to a certain extent and just refuse to buy anything. I guess what I'm saying is sure, they produce emissions. Actually, Jeep, hyundai, and many others also were shown to be producing high levels of NOx...levels arbitrarily decided on by a court, not that others didnt also produce them, just that they crossed the magic threshold.
Because you dont know or dont agree how bad it was, or dont believe anyone can accurately tell - you can confidently make the statement they did nothing to jeopardize public safety?
Their threshold gap was 10-40X the compliance number - not trivial.
Mcdonalds never claimed to be health food.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Compliance with some random number, and last I checked, heart disease was more of a problem than NOx. Paint it how you want, McDonalds has filled more graves.
The number wasnt " random" it was the number everyone else had to hit which VW missed by 10-40X then lied about.
What Mcdonalds, burger king, or Maersk shipping claimed, lied about, or did, is simply not germaine to VW being dishonest and negatively impacting public health.
I know- the #$%$#@ Germans got nothing to do with it.
UD
Interesting. Jeep, Hyundai, and a host of others DIDNT hit it...
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
The court system has very little to do with morality...
Now, what point, specifically, are you saying I'm wrong about? That I dont feel VW harmed consumers? I still dont feel they did, enough to raise my ire. I mean, we can argue that everyone harms people to a certain extent and just refuse to buy anything. I guess what I'm saying is sure, they produce emissions. Actually, Jeep, hyundai, and many others also were shown to be producing high levels of NOx...levels arbitrarily decided on by a court, not that others didnt also produce them, just that they crossed the magic threshold.
Because you dont know or dont agree how bad it was, or dont believe anyone can accurately tell - you can confidently make the statement they did nothing to jeopardize public safety?
Their threshold gap was 10-40X the compliance number - not trivial.
Mcdonalds never claimed to be health food.
The cargo shipping container industry didnt lie about emissions compliance.
VW actively conspired to lie and cover up cheating in regards to compliance.
UD
Compliance with some random number, and last I checked, heart disease was more of a problem than NOx. Paint it how you want, McDonalds has filled more graves.
The number wasnt " random" it was the number everyone else had to hit which VW missed by 10-40X then lied about.
What Mcdonalds, burger king, or Maersk shipping claimed, lied about, or did, is simply not germaine to VW being dishonest and negatively impacting public health.
I know- the #$%$#@ Germans got nothing to do with it.
UD
Interesting. Jeep, Hyundai, and a host of others DIDNT hit it...
Aren't the US emissions standards for diesel far more strict than the EU's? Tiny number multiplied by 40 is a now a small number. Yes, what they did is wrong, and they should be punished. But it's blown way out of proportion...
Meanwhile, Indiana steel mills are dumping god knows what anymore into the lake, near a drinking water inlet, and no one bats an eye. All they get is a stern lecture.
If I had the money, Taycan all day. But in reality, the model 3 is attainable for me, and doesn't look bad. Competition is always good though!
Meanwhile, Indiana steel mills are dumping god knows what anymore into the lake, near a drinking water inlet, and no one bats an eye. All they get is a stern lecture.
If I had the money, Taycan all day. But in reality, the model 3 is attainable for me, and doesn't look bad. Competition is always good though!
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
Interesting. Jeep, Hyundai, and a host of others DIDNT hit it...
Did they lie then conspire to hide that fact?
UD
FCA rather conveniently forgot to mention their vehicles also contained "defeat devices" which they claimed were only used to protect the engines from damage. I wouldn't call it so much as "lying and conspiring to hide it" as much as they're just seeing how long they can go before/if they get caught. Hand in the cookie jar analogy if that makes sense.
Originally Posted by Ws6
Interesting. Jeep, Hyundai, and a host of others DIDNT hit it...
Did they lie then conspire to hide that fact?
UD
FCA rather conveniently forgot to mention their vehicles also contained "defeat devices" which they claimed were only used to protect the engines from damage. I wouldn't call it so much as "lying and conspiring to hide it" as much as they're just seeing how long they can go before/if they get caught. Hand in the cookie jar analogy if that makes sense.
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
Interesting. Jeep, Hyundai, and a host of others DIDNT hit it...
Did they lie then conspire to hide that fact?
UD
No, they just never bothered to meet it to begin with in real world use.
Originally Posted by Ws6
Interesting. Jeep, Hyundai, and a host of others DIDNT hit it...
Did they lie then conspire to hide that fact?
UD
No, they just never bothered to meet it to begin with in real world use.
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