Synthetic Oils Worth It with E15 Blend?

[retmil46]

Now that the EPA and many states are literally mandating the sale of E15, I'm wondering if going with a top dollar synthetic oil is worth it anymore, unless you plan on religiously doing oil analysis?

Perusing the Amsoil site, looking over the "XX,XXX miles or one year" extended drain intervals listed for their synthetic oils, they all had one important caveat -

"NOTE - If using alternative fuels such as biodiesel or ethanol blends greater than 10 %, it is recommended to use the OEM recommended drain interval, unless extended based on oil analysis."

IOW, if you can only get E15 in your area, and you don't do periodic oil analysis on your vehicle, you're stuck with the factory oil change interval no matter what type oil you use.

That would seem to take away one of the major advantages of using high end synthetic oils, extended drain intervals.

 

[dparm]

Forgive the stupid question, but what does E15 do to motor oil that E10 does not?

 

[chubbs1]

I agree that it would probably not be worth it to use "syn" unless you plan on changing it at mfg. suggested intervals. It wouldn't hurt to use it if you can afford it, but conventionals would be fine at regular intervals in sure.

I have yet to see E15 and wasn't aware any legislation had been passed to mandate E15 use. If you have any certified documentation (ie. state regulatory or federal law) of mandated E15 use I would be interested to see it. I thought it was still in the "speculatory phase"

 

[mikered30]

I thought congress shot down the E 15 idea?

 

[dparm]

From Wikipedia:



In October 2010 the EPA granted a waiver to allow up to 15% of ethanol blended with gasoline to be sold only for cars and light pickup trucks with a model year of 2007 or later, representing about 15% of vehicles on the U.S. roads.[48][49][50] In January 2011 the waiver was expanded to authorize use of E15 to include model year 2001 through 2006 passenger vehicles. The EPA also decided not to grant any waiver for E15 use in any motorcycles, heavy-duty vehicles, or non-road engines because current testing data does not support such a waiver. According to the Renewable Fuels Association the E15 waivers now cover 62% of vehicles on the road in the US, and the ethanol group estimates that if all 2001 and newer cars and pickups were to use E15, the theoretical blend wall for ethanol use would be approximately 17.5 billion gallons per year. EPA is still studying if older cars can withstand a 15 percent ethanol blend.[51][52]


As EPA waiver authorize but does not require stations to offer E15, a practical barrier to the commercialization of the higher blend is the lack of infrastructure, similar to the limitations suffered by sales of E85, as most fuel stations do not have enough pumps to offer the new blend, few existing pumps are certified to dispense E15, and there are no dedicated tanks readily available to store E15. Also some state and federal regulations would have to change before E15 can be legally sold.[48][49] The National Association of Convenience Stores, which represents most gasoline retailers, considers that the potential for actual E15 demand is small “because the auto industry is not embracing the fuel and is not adjusting their warranties or recommendations for the fuel type." One possible solution to the infrastructure barriers is the introduction of blender pumps that allow consumers to turn a dial to select the level of ethanol, which would also allow owners of flexible-fuel cars to buy E85 fuel.[52]

 

[salv]

E15 is not mandated in any state or by the federal government. The EPA recently approved the use of E15 fuels in vehicles that are 2002? and newer. Because the approval does not cover older vehicles, many of which are still on the road, pumps with E15 must be clearly labeled and carry a disclaimer. It will be up to individual gas stations whether or not to carry E15. Liability concerns relating to engine damage will probably discourage most gas stations from carrying it exclusively.
I work for a dealership service department and our vehicle will not run properly on any fuel containing more than 10% ethanol, and our owners manuals state not to use any fuel containing more than 10% ethanol. The vehicles will also register fault codes if the ethanol concentration reaches 11% and the check engine light will set. There are warranty implications if inappropriate fuels are used.

 

[dparm]

Okay, back to the original question. How does synthetic oil come into play here?

 

[rslifkin]

IIRC, higher ethanol blends tend to form more acids in the crankcase. Most flex-fuel vehicles spec a shorter OCI for E85 use.

 

[dparm]

Okay, good info. So that would point to either (A) shorter OCI or (B) oils with better reserve alkalinity. I wonder if oil formulations will change if E15 becomes more prevalent in the future?

But for that matter, we might all be driving electric cars by then.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
IIRC, higher ethanol blends tend to form more acids in the crankcase. Most flex-fuel vehicles spec a shorter OCI for E85 use.


Pardon my ignorance but is that a fact? If so, would you plse provide references ?

Q.

 

[JHZR2]

What about cars that specify syn or a blend for running ethanol?

Seems like a blanket assessment without strong basis.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
IIRC, higher ethanol blends tend to form more acids in the crankcase. Most flex-fuel vehicles spec a shorter OCI for E85 use.


Pardon my ignorance but is that a fact? If so, would you plse provide references ?

Q.


My dad's truck manual SPECIFICALLY states that the OCI is severe service if he had the FLEX FUEL model AND used E-85. He doesn't, so it doesn't apply, but it is specific. 2001 Chevy S-10, with a 2.2L Vortec I4.

 

[mechtech2]

Even in my 2003 Ford manual, it states that if alcohol fuels are used, to change the oil more frequently.

[Also why I use MMO or 2 stroke oil in the fuel to lube the pump]

 

[spasm3]

e-15, not a big change from the e-10. If i ran e-85 regularly i would run an hdeo oil for the higher tbn.

 

[ChiTDI]

Mech - how much MMO do you use? Is that for E10 or E85?

 

[NHHEMI]

The approval for E15 has been put on hold. Congress reigned in the EPA. More studies on potential problems with it to be done plus they want to be sure that the labeling issue is properly dealt with so people don't accidentally use it in vehicles that can't run it. E15 is not coming to a pump near you anytime soon. Congress overruled the EPA on this back in Feb 2011. There is a thread about it soemwhere here on BITOG.

 

[retmil46]

Just because it's not mandated doesn't mean you couldn't already be getting E15 or even higher at the pump.

The tax credits enacted by Congress for the refiners and distributers for blending in ethanol still stands - something like 45 cents per gallon - so they're going to blend it in every chance they get.

As far as pump labeling, friend in Charlotte NC noted that NC recently changed the regulations such that labeling the pumps as to the percentage of ethanol is NO LONGER REQUIRED. He also noted that a couple consumer groups had tested various stations in both NC and SC and found ethanol percentages varying anywhere from 10% to 40%, regardless of what was stated on the pumps.

As long as the distributers are getting paid "per gallon" as to how much ethanol they blend in, my feeling is that there are going to be at least a few that are, shall we say, going to be a little "sloppy" as to how much ethanol they dump into each batch of gas to supposedly get an E10 blend.

Same friend has a 2002 Jeep Liberty V6. He says the difference between NC gas with whatever percentage of ethanol blended in, and gas from stations just across the border in SC that's advertised as "ethanol free", is quite noticeable in the way the vehicle runs and the fuel mileage he gets.

My concern isn't the fuel mileage, but what higher ethanol concentrations are going to do to the fuel systems of older vehicles - such as my elderly parent's 98 F150, 2000 Montero, and 92 Mustang. In their 70's and retired, they're not in any shape physically and financially to be dealing with major repairs or having to trade for a new vehicle due to any consequences from running ethanol blends higher than what their vehicles were designed for. Not to mention the original idea behind this thread, having to get a mechanic change their oil when required.

Just glad that right now both my vehicles are diesel.

 

[VRAY]

Hi guys
Here in Dallas County all of the gas has to be at least 10% ethanolbut I think it is more because my old truck pings a little on 87 octane. I have to run 89 to help it run better.Last week I bought gas from another county and that 87 octane ran OK with no ping. There is no telling what you are really getting.The only thing for sure is the price.