Synthetic for flat tappet SBC

[Berget]

Originally Posted By: Trav
With 1000 ppm phosphorus and 1100 ppm zinc Mobil 1 0w40 is high on the zinc scale for a pcmo and should be enough for a flat tappet without any additional zinc additive.

I thought that API SN puts a limit the zinc contents to 800ppm?


Originally Posted By: Astro14
I think your Chevy will be just fine on 0W40.

Sweet car by the way! Love the '65 with its round tail lights. My cousin had a '65 rag top. It was no collector car, and slow with that two speed powerglide, but such lines....

200k miles on dino sounds good. I’ve been told that the SBC will only last about 100-150k on regular oil. Complete bull I guess…

I know, I like it alot.

The powerglide in mine is a constant discussion piece whenever someone rides with me. For some reason, a two speed transmission is something spectacular for most people. I’ll guess it’s because most people ‘drive’ around with 8-speed autos and 6-speed manuals these days.

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Can you get 15w40 dual rated diesel/gas oil? It is IDEAL for that old car.
I wouldn't run synthetic in such an old car. 50 year old oil seals and synthetic are not a match made in heaven. Plus it's been on dino it's entire life most likely.

Yes, 15w40 is readily available. I’ve been told numerous time that I should not run synthetics in vehicles that has been fed dino for its entire life. Even though I believe it holds some merits, I still think it’s better to switch to synthetic than to keep running dino until the engine dies. Seal condition additives are part of most oils these days, and if it starts to leak it was due anyway.

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Can you get (Euro) Valvoline MaxLife High Mileage 5W-40? It would be perfect for this application IMHO...

Yes, it’s available for about 13$ / quart. What kind of synthetic is that, group III?

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
I had a '65 Impala SS 283 (2 barrel carb) back in the day-there's not a lot of valve lift or spring pressure on those old (non high performance) SB Chevy V8s-the M1 0W40 you're running is a lot better than the VI-laden 10W40 dino oil I ran then. Or, if it gets too cold, a dual rated 10W30 HDEO would be a good choice too (not sure of the ACEA spec).

10W-40 is kinda of a funny grade. Nobody seems to be using it over here. Maybe because its bad reputation of being prone to breaking down due to its high VI content? 10w30 sounds like an oil that would be to thin during heat soaked days. Or am I to brainwashed into the whole “the thicker, the better” scheme?

Originally Posted By: Alex_V
15w40 is too thick unless you're frequently working it hard in fairly high temperatures. I'd be using a 10w30 in it, but the 0w40 probably performs similarly enough to do just as well. A dual rated 5w40 wouldn't be bad, either - I'd probably opt for that over the 0w40 for any increased extra extreme pressure additives it may have. However, I'm not of the belief that any flat tappet engine needs loads of extra ZDDP just to get by.
Sounds like a cool car. Pics and options?

Can the Valvoline MaxLife 5W-40 be considered a dual rated oil?
ACEA: A3/B3, A3/B4
API: SN/CF

283 2-bbl powerglide. 4-door HT. Not much when it comes to options... got neither a tach nor a oil pressure gauge. AM radio, which is useless here (no AM radio stations here). No A/C. It doesn't even have a fan shroud

Originally Posted By: theeagleflies
IMHO and not overthinking the application; consider a high mileage oil type, either semi synthetic or dino 5w40. would avoid M1 products for that era motor. change 1 year or less or 5k miles or less. just my experience and opinion taken away from it.

Any particular reason why I should stay away from M1?

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
All this talk and we don't know how many miles are on the engine ...

Roughly 80k on the odo. Unknown maintenance up to about 70k.

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

The seals are old and pre-synthetic chemistry. The valve seals are as hard as rock and cracked, or missing. The generator is nearly toast (hanging off the exhaust manifold (?). The fuel pump is a big worry. As soon as it perforates the diaphragm it will be pumping gasoline into the crankcase. The oil filter base is sludged-up to beat the band (canister filter unless it's been modd'd to spin-on...). The oil screen pick-up is also half clogged ... And the cam is already gone halfway flat.

Things that need doing. Timing chain replacement. It is semi-dry and stretched and running with the cam at least 3* retarded ... You can change the timing chain from the front/top. If it's all dark and crusty, you need to think about when you'll replace/rebuild the motor? You can get another 30,000 miles with a new timing chain, but ...

Start looking for a good used 327 rebuild-able core.

Aren’t you a glass half-full kinda guy?

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Just run a 10-40 or 10-30 Maxlife if you can get it. Any major brand will work. I would not use a 0w oil unless you are in very cold temps. I am not a fan of Ow oils.

Any particular reason to avoid 0W and run 10W-40 instead? I’m not a fan of 10W-40, as they seem to be dino based with a lot of VI in them.

 

[BrocLuno]

All those issues I stated are related to earlier SBC motors with two-piece rear main seals and heads from before un-leaded gasoline AND over 100,000 miles with decades of time.

You are under the mileage when things usually get sketchy. You have age related issues and a pretty long "unknown" maintenance history. But it seems the car was well enough cared for. So good on you for keeping her running.

I've been into my share of aged SBC's and that list is what can go wrong. Not what will necessarily go wrong. But there are easy ways to know what you are up against.

1.) pull a valve cover and look. Easy enough to do, and they are prolly weeping anyway.

2.) drop the converter cover and use a pry bar to move the crank forward until the distributor rotor moves, then move the crank back the other direction until the rotor moves the other way. More than an inch of flywheel/flex-plate rotation w/o rotor moving and the timing chain is stretched or worn.

Many of these had plastic gears (sprockets) and steel chains, so as they age, the timing gears go bad and the chains will eat them up do to lack of lube. They rely on the little oil coming out the front side of the front cam bearing and oil vapors moving around the engine. There is no positive timing chain lubrication. As the miles accumulate, the oil flow to that front cam bearing slowly diminishes (due to wear and increasing clearances) when it's actually needed more ...

If you need to fix this, I suggest a double roller chain system with steel sprockets such as a Cloyes unit. They are not expensive. While you are changing the timing chain, you will get to install a new front crank seal and that will help with the synthetic oil possible dilemma. Leaking front a rear main seals are the number one bug-a-boo ...

But no matter what chain you use, add some oiling to keep it alive longer. Drill the lifter gallery plugs in the block behind the top timing gear. I usually drill them 0.030", but you can use any small drill in that range. Those two plugs will then weep oil continuously on the back of the timing gear and it will get tossed to the chain, etc. It will not bleed off enough oil pressure to even be noticeable. But your new timing chain will last until the engine dies for some other reason

We don't know which heads you have on that engine? Generator or alternator? Power steering?

 

[userfriendly]

Either that, or take out the 283 & slip slide auto and replace it with a 6.2L & 8L90E.

 

[Kevin719]

I would use "High Mileage" oils without the API Starburst on it, those usually have the higher zinc levels needed for flat tappet cam motors

 

[BrocLuno]

The no fan shroud was because they used the same radiator for 327 and 283. A fully loaded 327 with air con could load the cooling system pretty well and needed a shroud. The 2 bbl 283 with no accessories, not nearly as much

The reason I suggest looking for a nice used 327 is it's prolly one of Chevies best engines and they are getting hard to find. You can't just walk into a wrecking yard and grab a handful of 327's any more. There may be more surviving 283's ... The 327 got bought as a preferred replacement engine for cars/trucks getting long in the tooth, or as kids first hot-rod project many moons ago.

Tough motors with forged steel cranks that will take serious RPM abuse made them the choice of most everybody. Run hard and put away wet was common. I have an nice rebuilt 283 in my shop right now. Could not find a decent 327 when I started to build it ...

Your cylinder heads may be 1.72" intake valves with 1.50" exhaust. The better flowing 1.94" intake 327 heads were and easy swap on and they look almost identical on the outside. So if you could find a nice used/worn 327 you may get the better heads too

Then during rebuild, you could have hardened valve seats installed and not ever have to worry about valve regression from un-leaded gas.

I have an original carter 4-bbl cast iron intake manifold. I don't need to sell it. But if after playing with old girl some, you want up the anti and HP and find a donor 327, let me know and I'll ship it to you ...

Keeping these old cars running, and running well, is not trivial. Most folks who know how to tune and wrench on them have long ago retired. Not rocket science, but there are tricks to make them work well

 

[theeagleflies]

Originally Posted By: theeagleflies
IMHO and not overthinking the application; consider a high mileage oil type, either semi synthetic or dino 5w40. would avoid M1 products for that era motor. change 1 year or less or 5k miles or less. just my experience and opinion taken away from it.

Any particular reason why I should stay away from M1?

Just my own personal experience, nothing scientific, M1 synthetic seemed to always start seeping through the seals and gaskets on my cars that I had from the 60's and 70's. The valve train was also noisy using that oil. Could have been coincidence; but to many instances of it happening within the 1st or 2nd OCI with that oil. It was predictable.

 

[BrocLuno]

I have experienced similar things with engines of that era and M1 ...

Of course Group II was not available back then and Exxon/Mobil has moved Mobil1 to more Grp III which ought to be the ideal balance for those older engines ...

I would definitely run some sort of High Mileage (HM) oil just to try to soften older hard seals

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Berget
...
I thought that API SN puts a limit the zinc contents to 800ppm?


Not for 40W's, they can zinc it up all they want!!

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Can you get (Euro) Valvoline MaxLife High Mileage 5W-40? It would be perfect for this application IMHO...

Yes, it’s available for about 13$ / quart. What kind of synthetic is that, group III?


I'm not sure but my best guess is that its a blend of Group III/IV with more of the former than latter. So if $13 USD is really steep in Sweden, it might be more expensive than you need. As for being "duel rated", it's rated for gasoline engines, which is all that matters!

 

[Nickdfresh]

Beautiful car BTW...

 

[Dallas69]

I think 10-30 is what came in this.
Those old engines weren't built with 0w oils in mind.
That's just my thinking.

 

[Dallas69]

I would only use a0w if the manual said to.
I'm not a member of the thinner is better crowd.
Most engines are very forgiving about what oil you use.
I can't see anyway that I would use a 0w in this old car.
Just me.

 

[Trav]

The Mobil 1 0w40 isn't going to have much effect on the seals, this engine used a rope rear seal that seemed to unaffected by PAO but the higher ester content of HM oils tends to wash the graphite out of the rope seal making their benefit questionable for seal swelling (aka conditioning) and may actually cause an unstoppable rear main leak, the early 283 IIRC had an oil slinger to keep oil away from the front seal.
The last 283 I worked on had a slash cut breather tube down the back of the engine and no PCV valve with ram horn manifolds so how long they continued using the slinger I have no idea but the later SBC didn't use it.

This is one of the easiest ever made to do a total reseal on, drop the pan and use a Chinese finger for the rear main seal and the front cover is child's play to remove, the valve seals can be done easily with the heads on in an afternoon if you take coffee breaks or make a day of it and do the HG and a cam job at the same time.
+1 on the timing chain, most of the plastic teeth ended up in the oil pan at 60-80K.
Dropping a big block in this body is trade school kids stuff, almost zero fabrication work, that's the way I would go before messing around with small blocks in this size car, its needs a lot of torque to get the old lump shifting.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Either that, or take out the 283 & slip slide auto and replace it with a 6.2L & 8L90E.


New small block = not a chevy smallblock.

Not the same. No Likey.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I would only use a0w if the manual said to.
I'm not a member of the thinner is better crowd.
Most engines are very forgiving about what oil you use.
I can't see anyway that I would use a 0w in this old car.
Just me.


Oh, I didn't know that 0W oils were thinner except at extremely low temperatures. They are thinner at operating temperatures as well?

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I would only use a0w if the manual said to.
I'm not a member of the thinner is better crowd.
Most engines are very forgiving about what oil you use.
I can't see anyway that I would use a 0w in this old car.
Just me.


Oh, I didn't know that 0W oils were thinner except at extremely low temperatures. They are thinner at operating temperatures as well?


No, he needs to do some reading. The 0w is not the weight, simplified it's the cold crank rating. The second number is the grade which gives you a much better idea as to the actual "thickness" even though grades are a range. Most 0w40's are on the very thin side of 40 grade, but they are still 40's. A 15w40 HDEO by contrast, will typically be on the very thick side of 40 grade, but again will still be a 40.

The cold starting abilities of those two oils will be vastly different however.

 

[Dallas69]

I am only referring to cold starts with a 0w
Once hot it's fine.

 

[Trav]

The 0w is a lot thicker cold than the hot 40.

 

[FCD]

Originally Posted By: Trav
The 0w is a lot thicker cold than the hot 40.

+1
And he's in Sweden, i doubt he uses the car int he winter but anyway a 0W oil won't do any harm to the engine...

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I am only referring to cold starts with a 0w
Once hot it's fine.

Right. So you're saying 0W-40 at cold temperatures is too thin but 5W-40 is okay?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I think only in 0W20 grades do you see "ice point" viscosity lower than a 5W counterpart.

Likely same vis at ice 5w30 or 0w30

So, what's a cold start? -30C?