Synthetic cold flow vs conventional

[147_Grain]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Look at the Pour Point. For example, the conventional Mobil Super 5000 has a pour point of -36°C (-33°F).

http://www.mobil.us/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils_products_mobil-super-5w30.aspx#

Link: Pour Point

The pour point of Mobil 1 full synthetic 5w30 is -42 ºC. So even though it's the same viscosity rating as the Mobil Super 5w30, it has a lower pour point which means it's a little more viscous at cold temperatures.


....and the MRV of the EP version of Mobil 1 5w30 is even better at -54*C.

 

[Garak]

Yep, stick to reading MRV.

 

[NewYorkBuck]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: NewYorkBuck
I just said something similar on another thread - for basically an extra few bucks per oil change (less than ten and probably closer to five), you get all of the benefits of a syth over a dino. Yeah, yeah, you may never need the extra benefits of a synth. Sure, but what to consider is how much extra it will cost you over that trivial amount in the perhaps not-so-unlikely event that you do.....


And can you point us to the "not-so-unlikely" event, tell us what it might be and present us with some documented cases of it happening? And then please show us some documented cases where a synthetic oil prevented such an event?

A bunch of feel good rhetorics does not facts make.


LOL - its really not worth my time to try to convince you five bucks extra is cheap insurance for your car. If you don't see that, that's fine and dandy. If you want "documented cases," then I encourage Google as a good start. Make no mistake, I really couldn't care less what you use in your car, and hence will commit a commensurate amount of time relative.....

 

[Garak]

First off, he's in Canada, and synthetics are expensive up here, unless one does some real digging. Secondly, it's easy to cherry pick prices. PYB at Walmart Canada is usually $24 a jug. I've seen PP there at $20 a jug on rollback, ergo, synthetic is always a better deal, right?

Lubricant choice and OCI do matter. It is trivial for the average person, in either direction. Start doubling maintenance costs on a fleet with no tangible benefit, and see how long you last.

With the taxis, what I saved by extending the OCI and sticking to conventional was about enough to buy a new engine for each taxi at the end of their service life. In any event, they didn't need a new engine, since the conventional did fine, and dead engines aren't a significant cause of vehicles being retired.

 

[NewYorkBuck]

First off, you need to stop using absolute words like "always" in paraphrasing my posts. I intentionally do not use them because there are so few cases where they practically apply. Ie, if you are going to reply to one of my ideas, please take the time to get it right first. My post was based on generalities and probabilities, not absolutes.

Next, I agree the cost is trivial for the average person, which is kinda the crux of the cost/benefit I was driving at. That said, if my livelihood was based upon a fleet of motor vehicles, you can be sure I be investing much more time into what is the optimal cost for maintenance to maximize my profit. However, this scenario you paint is worlds apart in risk/reward than the average guy changing the oil in his one car on the weekend, and given the much larger amount of capital at risk, would entail a commensurate amount of additional attention.

Last, Id be beyond shocked if switching a taxi fleet from dino to synthetics would "double your maintenance costs with no tangible benefit." I don't run a fleet of taxis, but I cannot imagine many scenarios where making the switch would bump your maintenance costs in total by more than 5-10%. That said, I am a business owner as well and am more than sensitive to the fact that every dime spent is a dime of EBITDA not earned, so we are back again to trying to optimize maintenance costs.



Originally Posted By: Garak
First off, he's in Canada, and synthetics are expensive up here, unless one does some real digging. Secondly, it's easy to cherry pick prices. PYB at Walmart Canada is usually $24 a jug. I've seen PP there at $20 a jug on rollback, ergo, synthetic is always a better deal, right?

Lubricant choice and OCI do matter. It is trivial for the average person, in either direction. Start doubling maintenance costs on a fleet with no tangible benefit, and see how long you last.

With the taxis, what I saved by extending the OCI and sticking to conventional was about enough to buy a new engine for each taxi at the end of their service life. In any event, they didn't need a new engine, since the conventional did fine, and dead engines aren't a significant cause of vehicles being retired.

 

[Shannow]

Okidokie...what's the effect on EBITDA of doubling your oil cost for "insurance", rather than measurable, tangible benefit ?

 

[yvon_la]

The taxi dude is right!how its figured out?easy !

COST PER MILE!so if your whatever you want to sell isnt there then yoir stuff stay in their respective place.

 

[yvon_la]

Since conventional classic like 10w30 pretty much always is on sale somewhere it basicly mean synthetic are pretty much shut out of the corporate market because of the simple cost per mile formula.some corp dont even change oil they just top off and just change oil filter.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Since conventional classic like 10w30 pretty much always is on sale somewhere it basicly mean synthetic are pretty much shut out of the corporate market because of the simple cost per mile formula.some corp dont even change oil they just top off and just change oil filter.


What corps don't change oil in their vehicles and just change filters?

 

[yvon_la]

Since this is cb radio chatter i never heard name but it probably happen a lot more then i would have thought .otherwise why speak about it on cb radio

 

[147_Grain]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

What corps don't change oil in their vehicles and just change filters?

+2

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: NewYorkBuck
First off, you need to stop using absolute words like "always" in paraphrasing my posts.

I was generalizing, and not paraphrasing, because you're not the first or only person to make that argument. If synthetic is only a bit more money and it makes you feel good, go right ahead. The same thing applies to those who prefer premium in an old beater. Incidentally, since a lot of people shop at Walmart because it's a "cheaper" place to buy synthetics, I'm not sure why they don't buy conventional, since that's "cheaper" and they're not extending their OCIs anyhow.

And I've been through the debate on synthetics in taxis before. Synthetics historically and currently are double the price of conventional. The only difference as of late is that synthetics are marked down a little more deeply (percentage wise) than conventionals, when on special. No doubt, I could make that worth it. I would have to double the OCI. I'd have saved on filters. But, I did like to get under the car once in a while and check a few things over. An oil change that takes under 10 minutes every 6,000 miles fulfilled that desire.

I speak of doubling maintenance costs because so few people out there jump up to synthetic and then automatically double their OCI, or go with whatever extended drain warranty they might be offered. With the taxis, I'd have had to go to 12,000 miles minimum on an oil change to have made it start to pay. I've run the numbers in numerous threads here. When engines last 600,000 miles on a Quaker State conventional oil change every 6,000 miles, I'm really not sure what I'm missing.

If the OCIs could have been doubled and I still took the time to otherwise inspect the vehicles mechanically, great. Taxis are a little different than big rigs, though. I can change the oil faster than the drivers can vacuum the thing and wash the windows. So, the maintenance effort (and time off the road) is not important. The vehicles would go to the garage once a day for shift changeover and cleaning. The oil change added no time to the procedure.

demarpaint: It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were some in the taxi industry that just changed filters and not oil, particularly in something that was consuming a lot.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Garak

demarpaint: It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were some in the taxi industry that just changed filters and not oil, particularly in something that was consuming a lot.


Interesting!

 

[Garak]

Same operators are meticulous with maintenance, some are pretty shoddy, and most are down the middle. I've seen some mighty foolish things over the years, and it's amazing what some guys will try, just to save a buck. They, they wonder why their car is dead and they have to work for someone else when the repair bill is beyond the pale.

Our OCIs were 6,000 miles, and it didn't matter what it consumed over the OCI. Fortunately, we never ran into any vehicles that were ridiculous in the consumption department. They would all easily fall within the 1000 miles per quart OEM silly mantra.

 

[NewYorkBuck]

Fair response, specifically about the recent compression of synth prices.

If you're getting 600k on Quaker State dino in your fleet, I say more power to you. You're obviously doing something right.


Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: NewYorkBuck
First off, you need to stop using absolute words like "always" in paraphrasing my posts.

I was generalizing, and not paraphrasing, because you're not the first or only person to make that argument. If synthetic is only a bit more money and it makes you feel good, go right ahead. The same thing applies to those who prefer premium in an old beater. Incidentally, since a lot of people shop at Walmart because it's a "cheaper" place to buy synthetics, I'm not sure why they don't buy conventional, since that's "cheaper" and they're not extending their OCIs anyhow.

And I've been through the debate on synthetics in taxis before. Synthetics historically and currently are double the price of conventional. The only difference as of late is that synthetics are marked down a little more deeply (percentage wise) than conventionals, when on special. No doubt, I could make that worth it. I would have to double the OCI. I'd have saved on filters. But, I did like to get under the car once in a while and check a few things over. An oil change that takes under 10 minutes every 6,000 miles fulfilled that desire.

I speak of doubling maintenance costs because so few people out there jump up to synthetic and then automatically double their OCI, or go with whatever extended drain warranty they might be offered. With the taxis, I'd have had to go to 12,000 miles minimum on an oil change to have made it start to pay. I've run the numbers in numerous threads here. When engines last 600,000 miles on a Quaker State conventional oil change every 6,000 miles, I'm really not sure what I'm missing.

If the OCIs could have been doubled and I still took the time to otherwise inspect the vehicles mechanically, great. Taxis are a little different than big rigs, though. I can change the oil faster than the drivers can vacuum the thing and wash the windows. So, the maintenance effort (and time off the road) is not important. The vehicles would go to the garage once a day for shift changeover and cleaning. The oil change added no time to the procedure.

demarpaint: It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were some in the taxi industry that just changed filters and not oil, particularly in something that was consuming a lot.

 

[Garak]

Yep, that's pretty much the issue. We did fine on conventional, and given the costs and maintenance hours at the time, it worked fine. On the other hand, I bet I could do extremely well with my Delvac 1, cost wise, if I really wanted to push my OCIs. Given that its regular price is much the same as conventional at Walmart and Canadian Tire, and the high starting TBN and robustness of the oil, perhaps 10,000 miles plus would be a breeze.

 

[sicko]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Garak

demarpaint: It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were some in the taxi industry that just changed filters and not oil, particularly in something that was consuming a lot.


Interesting!



This definitely happens. I regularly talk with taxi drivers and will ask them the mileage on their car. One driver after telling me his car's mileage (it was over 200k miles) proudly told me he doesn't even change the oil in the car. He just tops up what burns off and changes the filter occasionally. The car (crown vic) was driving fine at the time.

 

[milkboy]

Originally Posted By: yvon_la
so if your whatever you want to sell isnt there then yoir stuff stay in their respective place.


This bears repeating.

 

[Garak]

The perpetual oil change in the taxis isn't my preferred method, though. It does show a rather shoddy view of maintenance in general.

 

[babbittd]

Originally Posted By: NO2
A 'not so unlikely event'

In extremely cold weather - weather so cold your car never warms up and you are constantly scraping the frost from inside of your windshield- your battery can only deliver a small fraction of its current. US Spec cars don't usually include a block heater. Synthetic oil helped me start my car in -30C to -40C Ottawa winters even after leaving it outside overnight. At those temperatures, having a working vehicle is critical and the better flow characteristics of many synthetics are a safety rather than convenience issue.

For Ohio I doubt it would make a difference more that a few days in a century. For states and provinces above the 45th parallel having a working vehicle regardless of outside temperature is essential.




Thank you for sharing this. This seems logical and rational and I'm going to file it away for future reference.