Stop/Start reduces oxidation and wear

And because he's a tribologist, he's supposed to be infallible? That's an ill logical argument.

I'm aware of his qualifications and his history within the industry (ex, lubricant development for race teams). Just curious as to yours.

In any case you must re-read what I said. In his professional opinion the wear caused by fuel dilution is greater than the wear caused by S/S systems. So if you have a known fuel diluter with s/s, then use the s/s system.
 
Well it's not a sample size of one as we're relying on the judgement from the tribologist.
It most certainly is a sample size of 1 (one).
In that video, they discuss how the use of the auto stop/start was significantly implemented during this ONE UOA, relative to the others being compared/contrasted. In fact, there are only THREE UOAs shown in the screenshot above, and the "one" being discussed is the most recent, relative to the effects of the s/s function.

In the video, at minute 9:00, quoting LSJ (the acclaimed tribologist ...) "Why don't you tell everyone what's different about this sample compared to the other two?"
My proof of claim lays directly in this quote ...
IT'S A SAMPLE SIZE OF ONE !!!

The fact that LSJ is a tribiologist means zilch to me; it's clear that he practices bad "science" when he looks at one UOA and concludes a singularly experienced phenomenon is justification to make such a claim as generalized fact.

To any true engineer/scientist, any test process must assure several things are present in any DOE to lend credibility to the conclusions:
- reduction of variables (as best possible); this "test" has WAY TOO MANY
- understanding of gauge R&R accuracy; no mention of this and I SERIOUSLY DOUBT they even know what this is, let alone how to calculate it
- minimum of 30 samples (to understand standard deviation relative to claimed or refuted output effects); as shown above, this is a "test" of one sample
- establish both baseline data and controlled variable averages and trends with enough data to comply with Stdev concept above; not done at all in this "test"


These two people in the video have exhibited nothing but to show their ignorance of how to prove or disprove anything credibly.


Look at this at face value ...
They are claiming that "wear" is reduced by using auto s/s.
What was the Fe wear rates in the two previous samples?
- sample SDS-0730 had a wear rate of 1.72 ppm / 1k miles
- sample AAA-3912 had a wear rate of .81 ppm / 1k miles
- sample AAA-4533 had a wear rate of 9.6 ppm / 1k miles (this was the sample that used auto s/s)
The two samples prior to the "test" had huge variation; the wear rate of the first sample was more than twice that of the second. Yet the "test" sample was very close to the sample before it which supposedly didn't have the auto s/s application as a controlled variable. The "test" sample Fe wear rate (supposedly proving that auto s/s reduces wear) landed in-between the two preceding samples which purportedly didn't use this function. And yet they claim that this proves their theory? OMGosh ....

Also, note that the other common wear metals were also similarly affected; the wear rates showed no real correlation to the auto s/s sample either, relative to previous samples.

LSJ and this Ford tech are saying that auto s/s reduces wear, via the indirect correlation of ONE UOA, by the method of that function (auto s/s) controlling fuel dilution, which in turn controls oxidation, which in turn controls viscosity, which in turn controls wear ....
There are several UNcontrolled variables in that chain of events, and the outcome they claim to prove their hypothesis is blown away by the variation of a factor of two in the preceding two samples, with absolutely no understanding of averages and standard deviation of baseline or variables.

There is no proven correlation between wear and auto s/s in this video data; none whatsoever.
Without correlation, there can be no causation.


JUNK SCIENCE, my good man. This is some of the worst "testing" seen on BITOG in a long time.
Just because LSJ is a tribologist, does not mean he's good at proving anything.
In fact, I'm comfortable stating that if this is the best he can do, he, in fact, is nothing but a YouTube hack who is being monetized by the unwitting fools who believe his "science". If this is all the better LSJ can do, then I'm going to say his "science" right up there with PF videos.
 
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S/S question: Is the beefed up, powered alternator system used to crank during S/S operation still used? (where the alternator becomes a motor to kick over a warm engine)
Hadn't heard of using the alternator to help spin, but anything's possible I suppose. I did hear years ago, before S/S was "common" that there were attempts to stop the engine in such a spot that just hitting the right spark plug would bring it to live. Not sure how common that is, nor how good, am guessing the starter motor still works--but all it has to be is "close enough" and then nothing more than a slightly beefed up starter should be required.

Personally, not a fan of start/stop, just seems... weird. Probably because I cut my teeth on carb cars and too many of them were start, pray they don't stop, and then... pray they would start again. BUT the wife's hybrid, s/s is pretty nice. Completely different setup and very much designed from the get-go to be solid. I do like it there.
 
I'm all for tackling problems but it sure seems there are fundamental sacred cows along every road.
Ex: Since both my parents recalled electric vehicles from their youth and electric milk wagons are a staple in the UK, it seemed to me that there was an easy place to fill with electrics. So many trips are short etc., etc. Then BANG, we get electric cars which accelerate 0-100 mph in 3 seconds and twucks which weigh tons. Why no finesse? How addicted to speed are we?

Q: If lube is the concern, can't they engineer a chamber which, after accumulating a load of oil when running, deliver it into the lube system just before S/S restarts an engine?

I read an article about S/S years ago and the powered alternator used as a starter was one of the methods listed. I don't know if the article was academic or actual industry reporting.
 
The last few hybrid cars I've had came with electric a/c compressors so that's not an issue. Even with belt driven compressors the blower still blows with the engine off and there is enough cold in the evaporator for a few minutes of the engine off to keep the inside tolerable. Besides, if it gets too warm, the engine turns on automatically when requested by the climate control. You'll be more uncomfortable in the 2 minute walk from the parking lot to the supermarket on a 90° day than the 2 minutes at a red light with the engine off.
Hybrid would be ideal obviously and I'm sure every manufacturer has their own programming parameters. For my own vehicle the humidity starts pumping through the cabin in about 20 seconds which made it unbearable because it would just deploy a film a dampness. In the winter I would just get fogged windows. It rarely get's so hot or cold that the system would be interrupted but humidity is ever present.
 
That's good to hear. I wonder if every S/S equipped vehicle has a beefed up starter. just askin'

S/S question: Is the beefed up, powered alternator system used to crank during S/S operation still used? (where the alternator becomes a motor to kick over a warm engine)
I am pretty sure Jeep did this on the newer turboed 2.0l I4 Wrangler.
 
That's good to hear. I wonder if every S/S equipped vehicle has a beefed up starter. just askin'

S/S question: Is the beefed up, powered alternator system used to crank during S/S operation still used? (where the alternator becomes a motor to kick over a warm engine)
Ya I dunno. For my model line BMW uses a starter with beefed up internals and a 55lbs AGM battery to power everything.
 
Lake Speed Jr. is NOT a degreed tribologist. Lake Speed Jr. holds a bachelors degree in communications from the University of Tennessee. Lake Speed Jr.'s association with lubrication and tribology comes from his two certifications issued through the STLE (society of tribologist and lubrication engineers - look at my profile pic). Lake Speed Jr. holds current certification with the STLE as a CLS - certified lubrication specialist and a OMA - oil monitoring analyst. He is not an engineer or a chemist. His dad was famous in racing and opened quite a few doors for him and he's a very bright young man but he's no oil formulator, chemist, tribologist, or engineer. Let's try to keep things real here.

That video is the most foolish thing to be discussed this week. The guy puts 7000 miles on a truck in a relatively short period and they're saying the start/stop feature had an impact on the oxidation levels? Please...

**edit: I was unsure what the drain interval was on this sample. I may have misspoken on the time frame. I also don't intend any disrespect toward Lake Speed Jr.
 
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It most certainly is a sample size of 1 (one).
In that video, they discuss how the use of the auto stop/start was significantly implemented during this ONE UOA, relative to the others being compared/contrasted. In fact, there are only THREE UOAs shown in the screenshot above, and the "one" being discussed is the most recent, relative to the effects of the s/s function.

In the video, at minute 9:00, quoting LSJ (the acclaimed tribologist ...) "Why don't you tell everyone what's different about this sample compared to the other two?"
My proof of claim lays directly in this quote ...
IT'S A SAMPLE SIZE OF ONE !!!

The fact that LSJ is a tribiologist means zilch to me; it's clear that he practices bad "science" when he looks at one UOA and concludes a singularly experienced phenomenon is justification to make such a claim as generalized fact.

To any true engineer/scientist, any test process must assure several things are present in any DOE to lend credibility to the conclusions:
- reduction of variables (as best possible); this "test" has WAY TOO MANY
- understanding of gauge R&R accuracy; no mention of this and I SERIOUSLY DOUBT they even know what this is, let alone how to calculate it
- minimum of 30 samples (to understand standard deviation relative to claimed or refuted output effects); as shown above, this is a "test" of one sample
- establish both baseline data and controlled variable averages and trends with enough data to comply with Stdev concept above; not done at all in this "test"


These two people in the video have exhibited nothing but to show their ignorance of how to prove or disprove anything credibly.


Look at this at face value ...
They are claiming that "wear" is reduced by using auto s/s.
What was the Fe wear rates in the two previous samples?
- sample SDS-0730 had a wear rate of 1.72 ppm / 1k miles
- sample AAA-3912 had a wear rate of .81 ppm / 1k miles
The two samples prior to the "test" had huge variation; the wear rate of the first sample was more than twice that of the second.
What was the wear rate of the auto s/s test? Sample AAA-4533 had a wear rate of 9.6 ppm / 1k miles (very close to the sample before it which supposedly didn't have the auto s/s application as a controlled variable). The "test" sample Fe wear rate (supposedly proving that auto s/s reduces wear) landed in-between the two preceding samples which purportedly didn't use this function. And yet they claim that this proves their theory? OMG ....


LSJ and this Ford tech are claiming that auto s/s reduces wear, via the indirect correlation of ONE UOA, by the method of that function (auto s/s) controlling fuel dilution, which in turn controls oxidation, which in turn controls viscosity, which in turn controls wear ....
There are several UNcontrolled variables in that chain of events, and the outcome they claim to prove their hypothesis is blown away by the variation of a factor of two in the preceding two samples, with absolutely no understanding of averages and standard deviation of baseline or variables.

There is no proven correlation between wear and auto s/s in this video data; none whatsoever.
Without correlation, there can be no causation.


JUNK SCIENCE, my good man. You are placing your faith in some of the worst "testing" seen on BITOG in a long time.
Just because LSJ is a tribologist, does not mean he's good at proving anything.
In fact, I'm comfortable stating that if this is the best he can do, he, in fact, is nothing but a YouTube hack who is being monetized by the unwitting fools who believe his "science". If this is all the better LSJ can do, then I'm going to say his "science" right up there with PF videos.

You need to listen to the video again because he did explain the differences between the other samples. He explained that there's wear which is just noise and wear which actually "means something". IIRC he said wear of 5 ppm or less is just noise.

As for LSJ's claim. You're taking it out of context. LSJ is not claiming that s/s reduces wear, but that when compared to fuel induced wear the s/s system will result in less wear because it reduces the amount of fuel and fuel dilution is the worst offender between the two. If you look at all three samples you see that the most recent with the longest OCI has the least amount of fuel (.59 vs .8 and .9).
 
Have we all gotten so soft that we can't handle a minute of humidity? It's just as humid around here and somehow I can survive this.
When was wearing a suit and tie the answer is yes but what I hate more is window film.. My OCD can't handle it. ROFL.
 
You need to listen to the video again because he did explain the differences between the other samples. He explained that there's wear which is just noise and wear which actually "means something". IIRC he said wear of 5 ppm or less is just noise.
So why is he and the Ford Tech so excited about these results? They clearly are implying that using auto s/s will reduce wear. And yet, there is no proof (none; zip; nada) that exists in this one sample to backup that theory.


As for LSJ's claim. You're taking it out of context.
I take nothing out of context here. I've watched the video several times. He is essentially stating that this succession of logic exists:
- using auto s/s reduces fuel dilution
- reducing fuel dilution will alter oxidation
- altering oxidation will affect viscosity
- viscosity affects wear
This is what he implies, regardless of what you think he "claims".

LSJ is not claiming that s/s reduces wear, but that when compared to fuel induced wear the s/s system will result in less wear because it reduces the amount of fuel and fuel dilution is the worst offender between the two. If you look at all three samples you see that the most recent with the longest OCI has the least amount of fuel (.59 vs .8 and .9).
Again, there is no establishment of ANY sense of understanding variable normality in this "test". Whether we discuss fuel dilution, wear, viscosity, etc; they all have unknown Stdev values.

I am on record many times stating that WEAR RATES are the most important thing we should be concerned about. Other attributes such as fuel content, vis, FP, elements, etc all are inputs to an function of wear control. We should only focus on the outputs (wear rates).

There is NO CORRELATION between the use of auto s/s and wear in this "test" video.
Without correlation, there can be no causation.


I stand by my assessment.
If this is the best LSJ can do, he's a YT hack no different than PF.


*******************
Side note ....
Look at the thread title of this thread (your thread title that YOU posted)
One of two things is true here:
1) LSJ is making implication that wear is controlled in a desirable manner by using auto s/s
2) you are taking an inference that the above is true
Your own thread title and initial post indicate that wear is controlled by using auto s/s; the more use, the lower the wear.
So, it is disingenuous for you to claim that I am misinterpreting LSJ here, when YOU are the one who posted this video and laid down the claims.

Either LSJ is implying and even stating that wear is controlled by using auto s/s in a desirable manner, or you are claiming that same phenomenon exists. So which is it? Is this his theory, or yours? Because your thread title certainly claims what I am refuting; there is no proof here.
Your own thread words CLEARLY are drawing a relationship between using auto s/s and wear; it's right in the thread title.
So, did LSJ directly say this, or did you?
 
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So why is he and the Ford Tech so excited about these results? They clearly are implying that using auto s/s will reduce wear. And yet, there is no proof (none; zip; nada) that exists in this one sample to backup that theory.



I take nothing out of context here. I've watched the video several times. He is essentially stating that this succession of logic exists:
- using auto s/s reduces fuel dilution
- reducing fuel dilution will alter oxidation
- altering oxidation will affect viscosity
- viscosity affects wear
This is what he implies, regardless of what you think he "claims".


Again, there is no establishment of ANY sense of understanding variable normality in this "test". Whether we discuss fuel dilution, wear, viscosity, etc; they all have unknown Stdev values.

I am on record many times stating that WEAR RATES are the most important thing we should be concerned about. Other attributes such as fuel content, vis, FP, elements, etc all are inputs to an function of wear control. We should only focus on the outputs (wear rates).

There is NO CORRELATION between the use of auto s/s and wear in this "test" video.
Without correlation, there can be no causation.


I stand by my assessment.
If this is the best LSJ can do, he's a YT hack no different than PF.
IOW because we don't know the Stdev values for the test methods used to arrive at the various values there's no conclusion to draw.

Do you think LSJ knows enough about his own product to make that determination? Do you trust that he does?
 
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Why bearings failure rates are tripled then?
Here's an article that was written on Amsoil:
It states that the S/S system triples the number of times bearings are exposed to wear. It does not state that bearings fail at 3x the rate.
 
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