Spark plugs removed after 4,000 miles...Yikes?

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ltslimjim

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Here are a few pictures, all of the plugs had a strange scorched/discolored marking on them(as seen on the right hand plug):

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3654/1003550.jpg

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/8595/1003553d.jpg

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1763/1003554.jpg

The plugs before had 20,000 and I considered that as premature(30,000 mile plug intervals on this car with these plugs), and they showed NONE of the conditions seen above. Only that more of the threads had carbon, but the wear looked more normal to me otherwise.

This engine burns lean so I expect some plug degradation around the armature(white condition), but what would cause the issue seen in the pictures leading up to the electrode?

I used anti-seize for the first time when I first installed these(still gaining experience), and thought I 'may' have used too much whilst installing.

When I put these plugs in, I also changed the fuel filter(for a 2nd time since owning the car 22,000 miles ago; 232k - 254k currently). I figured that was being overtly cautious as I got the car caught up on maintenance.

It had only been 4,000 miles since and my fuel mileage has really dropped off from what this car was getting last summer(43-45 average MPG to 36-38)...

Fuel filter used was a Purolator(classic?) and the plugs are the original model number for the vehicle.

Things that were done since the oil change:

Full bottle of Red Line SI-1(vastly overdosed), to the tiny 10 gallon tank. This was a mistake, not sure if it would cause the color seen here? I used the entire 15 ounce bottle to a full tank, whereas in the future perhaps only 1/2 of such a bottle is necessary for a cleanup phase(non-maintenance dosage).

I do add MMO after most re-fueling stops once home, typically I top off the gas with MMO after filling up(about 3 ounces for every 10 gallons), could this have affected the plug's appearance? Pouring in the MMO on a full tank?

I didn't have noticeable misfiring on these plugs(the really bad kind), but there was a slight stumble at idle. The vehicle needs a replacement clutch currently, and I have to ride the pedal longer(especially in this summer heat with constant AC usage) so it's a big load for this 92 HP engine, while the clutch(disc slipping?) is affecting power transfer as well.

Not sure if any of that could affect plug condition, I'd think not. Any tips or advice would be appreciated. On another site someone suggested perhaps valve seals were shot or my oil separator isn't doing it's job?

A compression test back at 232,000 passed, but the mechanic claims that it was while the engine was 'only warm' and it 'may' change the outcome of a compression test if done once fully hot instead(not sure why he tested 'just' warm then ?)...
 
are those bkr6es-11? I would not uses the V power US made ones only the ES. Also, I would stop putting stuff in the fuel tank and let the ECU reset and get back to a baseline. One CYL looks lean maybe a dirty injector or tight intake valve - this can cause the mixture to go south for the other cylinders. Whan was the valve Lash checked last? Again try to get the BKR6ES-11 eith the blue number on the insulator - Ive found in past tuneups that the V power on the US made cheapie NGK to run a step hotter than the heatrange on the box. U[date - Looking at the phptpos again the insulator nose lenght is too long for a BKR 11. Looks like a Mazda plug fron the 90's. The MAzda uses a ZFR. So a lean burn Honda would use a heatrange 5 - which is very hot. Some ecomilers run 4 - which seems too hot to me.
 
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These are the correct plugs for this vehicle. NGK ZFR4F-11(NGK 4043)...other VX owners swear by them.

Valve adjustment was performed last December. The plug on the left in the pictures has it's own 'mark' not visible at the angle in the pictures. The issue was all 4 cylinders had the same 'burn' look on them as seen clearly on the right hand plug in the pics.
 
Plugs that looked very similar to this were common in the 80's with some fuels, it was from an additive they used.
I would stop with the additives completely, check for vacuum leaks, reset the ECM as someone suggested and maybe go one heat range lower.

Quote:
A compression test back at 232,000 passed, but the mechanic claims that it was while the engine was 'only warm' and it 'may' change the outcome of a compression test if done once fully hot instead(not sure why he tested 'just' warm then ?)...

If the compression was okay warm then its going to okay hot, no issues there.
 
^I won't change the plug type unless the car is limping and for some reason I was still driving it without getting the actual problem fixed...I have noticed a leak at my VTEC solenoid(the wire over to the harness gets oil on it) and this was after replacing the housing/mounting seals that were a source of an oil leak before. Consumption went down, but it does still consume oil, about 1 quart every 4,000 miles or so is typical, or a 1/4th every 1,000 or so(I try to stay topped off since I'm extending).

I'm trying to get this car out to 10,000(+) mile OCIs, but now I'm not so sure(inols being relatively high had me worried as well).

I'll lay off the fuel additives for a while and see if mileage improves(even not using MMO). I kicked myself after realizing I used the SI-1 too strongly, let alone only 2,000 miles into an extended OCI.
27.gif


I don't think the car has any vacuum leaks. All of the hoses I see look okay with no obvious tears, etc. What else could cause or simulate a vacuum leak? I've been given a tip to spray TB cleaner at the vacuum hoses(misting slightly) and seeing if the idle changes any when spraying any particular hose along the IM.

I occasionally have a rough/noisy idle(the sound comes from the drive belts), but it's generally only when the AC is on w/ headlights; etc(I need a new battery this winter).
 
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Those are burn marks, i doubt anti-seize is the problem.

Are you having other problems with your are? just wondering why you are running additives all the time.

fiddler
 
I don't run additives 'all of the time'. I used Red Line SI-1 one time recently to try it out.

While the use of 'additives' is up for definition, all gas comes with additives so not to be technical, but no I don't use additives all of the time(system cleaners that is).

The use of 'maintenance' dosing is nothing new. I've been trying out MMO(lots of folks use TC-W3 or MMO etc), at an extremely diluted ratio. Not for use as a 'cleansing' additive, but as an UCL.
 
Those look a lot like the plugs I had in my Boss 302 after I used Lucas Octane Booster for 2 full tanks.

I pulled the plugs and ended up replacing them with another set. I would bet its the additives and would either stop using them or just cut back on there use...
 
I have seen additives leave plugs looking strange. Had you used them frequently during the previous set of 'normal' looking plugs?
 
Originally Posted By: CBR.worm
I have seen additives leave plugs looking strange. Had you used them frequently during the previous set of 'normal' looking plugs?


I had only began to use MMO during the previous 20,000 mile set, but previously had only used 2 or 3 'cleaner' additives prior to oil change(maybe Sea Foam once, half a can to a full tank etc)...I just tried Red Line's SI-1 for the first time.

These past 4,000 miles I used a little bit of MMO at 'most' tanks post Red Line. Some tanks I used only gas(3 or 4 tanks). So, if I'm getting 360s+ before I fill up, that's 11 total tanks on these plugs(including the tank of SI-1). I wouldn't call 5 or 6 tanks with the 'maintenance' dosage of MMO over use of adds, that's all I'm saying.

The other site I post on had the suggestion to perform a Leak Down test to determine if perhaps rings; intake valve; exhaust; or head gasket issues.

Maybe as Boss implied, it was the Red Line in of itself that caused the discoloration. That was my first thought when I pulled them anyway.
 
I have seen plugs look like this in some vehicles that require regular unleaded and the owner refuses to use anything other than Premium. Some engines tolerate it better than others. I assume you are using regular?
 
The addition of MMO especially makes me suspicious.


Stop using MMO, it is NOT designed for fuel systems.


Honda does not recommend ANY fuel additives except for Chevron Techron and similar products (that contain PEA detergent)

When will the madness stop with MMO?
 
The only thing MMO did for my Honda was slash my mpg by 5 over 2 tanks with the proper dosage for 10 gallons. I would advise you stop using, and as for the Redline sl-1, I generally put half the bottle in for 10 gallons 2 times every 5k miles.
 
^I may do something similar with Red Line(considering Amsoil's P.i. product next) spaced out to the end of each extended OCI(the last full tank).

As for MMO or other maintenance/UCL type doses, I'll lay off for now, and will report back to this thread much later.
 
I also have used Amsoil P.I. for my last cleaning cycle, I feel as though I got a better result from it, and it is more readily available for me.
 
^I can get both locally. I finally found a shop that carries enough Amsoil products for me to buy there for odd and end things(non-engine oil products). I'd pay for the PC if I lived in the boonies, though, just because I run their oils(not all of the time though I wish I could, would have if I got this car new).
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: CBR.worm
I have seen additives leave plugs looking strange. Had you used them frequently during the previous set of 'normal' looking plugs?


I had only began to use MMO during the previous 20,000 mile set, but previously had only used 2 or 3 'cleaner' additives prior to oil change(maybe Sea Foam once, half a can to a full tank etc)...I just tried Red Line's SI-1 for the first time.

These past 4,000 miles I used a little bit of MMO at 'most' tanks post Red Line. Some tanks I used only gas(3 or 4 tanks). So, if I'm getting 360s+ before I fill up, that's 11 total tanks on these plugs(including the tank of SI-1). I wouldn't call 5 or 6 tanks with the 'maintenance' dosage of MMO over use of adds, that's all I'm saying.

The other site I post on had the suggestion to perform a Leak Down test to determine if perhaps rings; intake valve; exhaust; or head gasket issues.

Maybe as Boss implied, it was the Red Line in of itself that caused the discoloration. That was my first thought when I pulled them anyway.


maybe you got an extra strong bottle of redline! does you car sound any different than without the additives?

fiddlr
 
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