Spark plug discussion

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Originally Posted By: Chris142
Platinum wears slower than copper or Nickle so in therory platinum plugs should last longer than standard plugs.

It sounds like you are under the impression that copper is the electrode. Copper is a core material behind the center tip for heat conduction. The tips are either nickel, nickel with platinum pads, or fine wire platinum. (Iridium is sometimes substituted for platinum).
 
Put the new Autolite's in today and the ol' 2.4 "Twin-Cam" sure runs smooth now!

Stock gap on the AC Delco's (in the manual) was .050; two of the plugs were around .065 to .07, and the other two were .09 and .095+ respectivly. I should have done this long ago.
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But life does get in the way sometimes.
 
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


The problem is the teeny, tiny grounds that they use on +4s weren't robust enough. I can assure in my case there were zero detonation issues and the plug was the part# Bosch called for the Ford 4.6 2V.


Sounds like a heat issue to me possibly...if the heat range is correct and there are no issues with the engine and NO modifications either..no chips, t stats, cams ect...any?


It is a heat issue, combustion temperature heat/pressure and a ground strap less the half the size of a normal one, but it was nothing to do with the heat range of the plug. Happened with two sets of plugs on the 4.6. The +4 is a useless technology, as they don't fire off of all 4 grounds anyway.
 
It depends really on what it is for but I have some general opinions. I like( in no order just how they come to me )NGK, Bosch, AC, Motorcraft, Autolite, and Accel plugs for vehicles. I do not like at all, and will do everything I can to avoid using, Champion plugs in an auto. They are JUNK!

For small yard equipment and marine use I will use Champions. They seem to do ok there. Even so I prefer NGK's when I can get them for those applications.

I have no use for specialty plugs like Splitfire, E3, Pulstar, etc... Just a waste of money on gimmick plugs for little if any gains. However, I do believe in using better quality plugs when possible. By that I mean using Iridium or Platinum plugs instead of standard copper cores. Not because they give better performance gains but because they last much longer.
 
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What is the Champion hate based on. It seems to have earned a reputation similar to Fram.

My Caravan came with Champion coppers as OEM, but also lists NGK V power on the hood sticker. I have used both and couldn't tell a bit of difference between them. A lot of internet guru's believe Chryslers run best on Champion. Go figure.
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
What is the Champion hate based on. It seems to have earned a reputation similar to Fram.

My Caravan came with Champion coppers as OEM, but also lists NGK V power on the hood sticker. I have used both and couldn't tell a bit of difference between them. A lot of internet guru's believe Chryslers run best on Champion. Go figure.


Primarily from quality issues that the brand had in the 70's and 80's that (like Quaker State) have followed it doggedly ever since.

Chrysler's are perceived to run best on Champions because that is what they had in them from the factory (though NGK can be found on some). I tend to agree that for OE performance one should run an OE plug, and as such use AC in GM products, Motorcraft in Ford products, Champion in most Chrysler products, and so on and so forth. Some would call that "drinking the OE koolaid", but in my DIY and professional experience it just works.

Of course, when one modifies the engine tune or starts using power adders, all of this goes out the proverbial window, and I tend to run NGK's in their various incarnations for their quality and ease of interchange for a hotter or colder plug.

On the subject of Bosch plugs, I have no use for their multi electrode marketing gibberish, though their Super+ and platinum plugs are fine.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Platinum wears slower than copper or Nickle so in therory platinum plugs should last longer than standard plugs.

It sounds like you are under the impression that copper is the electrode. Copper is a core material behind the center tip for heat conduction. The tips are either nickel, nickel with platinum pads, or fine wire platinum. (Iridium is sometimes substituted for platinum).
Naw I know that "Copper" plugs are nickle coated. Just for the sake of confusion regular plugs say "Copper" and not "Nickle Plated" on the box.
 
Several years ago I put Bosch +2 Platinums in my 4.0 Ford engine (Mazda B4000 pickup - basically a Ranger). Ran them for 40k without a problem before getting rid of the vehicle. I noticed a positive change in performance from the old ones.

About two years ago I put Bosch Platinum Ir Fusion (a +4 plug) in our 1.8L Vibe with 85k on the OEMs (NGK Iridiums if I remember right, rated in the manual to 120k but I like to change things early sometimes). They looked good for color and everything, but didn't measure the gap. I didn't notice a difference in performance with the new plugs, but have had no problems with them either.
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
What is the Champion hate based on. It seems to have earned a reputation similar to Fram.

My Caravan came with Champion coppers as OEM, but also lists NGK V power on the hood sticker. I have used both and couldn't tell a bit of difference between them. A lot of internet guru's believe Chryslers run best on Champion. Go figure.


Will Champions work? Sure but they are very poor quality wise even today. That poor rep they earned back in the day the other poster talked about continues. I am a HUGE MOPAR guy and Champions have been OE issue for ever it seems. They have had poor quality forever as well.

I have had so much trouble with them fouling( this is a HUGE Champion issue! ), cracking( i.e. the ceramic ), wearing out 2-3X faster than other brands, etc... that I just hate them. Back when I sold aftermarket parts the mechanics, but for one or two OE is the only way to go period guys, refused to use them. I actually had a few guys who were OE is the only way to go on everything BUT Champion plugs. It was the one thing they would not use OE because they hated them.

I can get a better plug for the same money so it really is like the Fram situation. Will Fram filters and Champion plugs work. Yup. Can I do better for the same or less money = another yup.

My 2008 Dodge Ram 5.7L HEMI came with Champions as OE issue. They have to be replaced at 30K. There are 16 of them and they are a real miserable son of a gun to replace. I will not use Champions when I replace them. At 30K Champion plugs in the 5.7L are basically toast for most people where as NGK( #5306 is the most popular copper core replacement for the 5.7L )can go 45-50K and still be functional.If I go copper core it will be NGK and if I go with an upgraded plug it will be NGK or Denso Iridiums.

I just don't like them and have had bad luck with them. IT is not because so and so told me way back in 1955 they had a problem with them as the other guy sort of implied. I have used them and sold them and that has taught me they stink!
 
I'll address a few issues here from the above posts.

Champion is owned by Federal Mogul = Felpro, Wagner brakes, Moog

Autolite is Allied Signal = Fram, Bendix, Prestone

I am using Champion in my Ranger. I want to try something new and see if I can tell a difference. I am leaning towards NGK. I will probably use Motorcraft in the Explorer and haven't decided yet for the Freestar, since the Freestar is a huge pain to change I may go iridium.

I found the Denso website and they had some really good info on their, I recommend it if your hunting for basic info. My memory hasn't served me well. As I had heat range and spark plug gap backwards until I read the Denso site info.


As far as 99gt issues. I believe he got correct plug. His failure was probably a quality issue specific to that style of plug. The ground electrodes on those are not as robust as they are on convetional plugs.
 
NHHemi, your experience with the Champion plugs is interestng. I've owned two Mopar minivans now (with the 3.3/3.8L engines) and the OE dual-platinum Champion plugs on those are almost always good for at least the recommended 75k mile change interval. And to top it, most folks' experience with other brands in those engines is negative. We always recommend the OEM Champion dual-plat plugs.

Are the Hemi plugs platinum or standard copper?
 
I put NGK Iridium's in my 93 4.0L Ranger, and I did notice a difference.. I really wanted to back to the motorcraft double platnum's. But so far the NGK's seem to have "broken in" and everything seems to be fine.
I put motorcrafts in my 92 Taurus.. I really wanted to try the Champion's but couldn't get myself to do it. the back 3 plugs aren't exactly easy.
I don't believe the champion's are bad, just their reputation and word of mouth kinda condemns them?

I talked to the federal-mogul rep who was monitoring our champion plug sales and each week barely any were sold (not even the lawn&garden plugs). he got verbally irate at us and said that champion plugs are 80% OE plugs for all manufacturers including BMW. We laughed at him, then got in trouble with the boss.
We still don't sell 'em, and when the rep comes in, we just say we try to sell them but nobody wants them.

Out of boredom I sold a set of the gold truck plugs to a guy with an explorer.. he hasn't come back to complain, and I'm sure they're fine.
 
I have NGK Double Plats in the van and Bosch Super Plus in the Saturn. The Saturn's MPG seems a bit on the lower side, but it was low even with the NGK Coppers, so I don't know.

I will be testing a set of Autolite Iridiums in the coming weeks for someone so I'll see how well those run in the Saturn, despite all of the anti-Iridium propaganda on SaturnFans.
 
Originally Posted By: MC5W20
I'll address a few issues here from the above posts.

Champion is owned by Federal Mogul = Felpro, Wagner brakes, Moog

Autolite is Allied Signal = Fram, Bendix, Prestone

I am using Champion in my Ranger. I want to try something new and see if I can tell a difference. I am leaning towards NGK. I will probably use Motorcraft in the Explorer and haven't decided yet for the Freestar, since the Freestar is a huge pain to change I may go iridium.

I found the Denso website and they had some really good info on their, I recommend it if your hunting for basic info. My memory hasn't served me well. As I had heat range and spark plug gap backwards until I read the Denso site info.


As far as 99gt issues. I believe he got correct plug. His failure was probably a quality issue specific to that style of plug. The ground electrodes on those are not as robust as they are on convetional plugs.


The parent company of a parts brand is not always releveant. Parts brands get sold and traded around like banks. Just because a company owns Fram and brand XXX does not mean brand XXX will be poor like Fram. And the same applies to whatever company owns Champion and brand XXX if you consider brand XXX a premium product.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
NHHemi, your experience with the Champion plugs is interestng. I've owned two Mopar minivans now (with the 3.3/3.8L engines) and the OE dual-platinum Champion plugs on those are almost always good for at least the recommended 75k mile change interval. And to top it, most folks' experience with other brands in those engines is negative. We always recommend the OEM Champion dual-plat plugs.

Are the Hemi plugs platinum or standard copper?


Standard copper cores in the 5.7L. If Champion works best for you obviously use them. My comments are in general terms and not specific engine related( other than I brought up the HEMI to say there was no way I would use the OE Champions when I do the swap ).
 
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: MC5W20
I'll address a few issues here from the above posts.

Champion is owned by Federal Mogul = Felpro, Wagner brakes, Moog

Autolite is Allied Signal = Fram, Bendix, Prestone

I am using Champion in my Ranger. I want to try something new and see if I can tell a difference. I am leaning towards NGK. I will probably use Motorcraft in the Explorer and haven't decided yet for the Freestar, since the Freestar is a huge pain to change I may go iridium.

I found the Denso website and they had some really good info on their, I recommend it if your hunting for basic info. My memory hasn't served me well. As I had heat range and spark plug gap backwards until I read the Denso site info.


As far as 99gt issues. I believe he got correct plug. His failure was probably a quality issue specific to that style of plug. The ground electrodes on those are not as robust as they are on convetional plugs.


The parent company of a parts brand is not always releveant. Parts brands get sold and traded around like banks. Just because a company owns Fram and brand XXX does not mean brand XXX will be poor like Fram. And the same applies to whatever company owns Champion and brand XXX if you consider brand XXX a premium product.



I do believe the parent company of a brand is always relevant. The part brand name can be put on other products that the parent company doesn't even make, yes, but the turnover rate for the sale of such companies is actually quite low, to be measured in only a few every several years. I never tried to imply that because the "perception" that Fram is lower quality means that all of the products that company makes are also poor quality. I am just stating the facts about who makes what, as it was clear from other posts some don't know this info.

Each individual plant that manufactures a product controls their own quality. Now, what you must understand, how the parent company ties in, is that they control the management at the factories, they control the capitol expenditures, the technology research, and most other resources they need to manufacture there products. So to think a parent compnay is irrevelant is not to understand how a company operates on a daily basis. So in short part of what you say is true, just don't be fooled into rash generalizations that you think should be the case in some perfect world that don't exist.
 
Originally Posted By: MC5W20
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: MC5W20
I'll address a few issues here from the above posts.

Champion is owned by Federal Mogul = Felpro, Wagner brakes, Moog

Autolite is Allied Signal = Fram, Bendix, Prestone

I am using Champion in my Ranger. I want to try something new and see if I can tell a difference. I am leaning towards NGK. I will probably use Motorcraft in the Explorer and haven't decided yet for the Freestar, since the Freestar is a huge pain to change I may go iridium.

I found the Denso website and they had some really good info on their, I recommend it if your hunting for basic info. My memory hasn't served me well. As I had heat range and spark plug gap backwards until I read the Denso site info.


As far as 99gt issues. I believe he got correct plug. His failure was probably a quality issue specific to that style of plug. The ground electrodes on those are not as robust as they are on convetional plugs.


The parent company of a parts brand is not always releveant. Parts brands get sold and traded around like banks. Just because a company owns Fram and brand XXX does not mean brand XXX will be poor like Fram. And the same applies to whatever company owns Champion and brand XXX if you consider brand XXX a premium product.



I do believe the parent company of a brand is always relevant. The part brand name can be put on other products that the parent company doesn't even make, yes, but the turnover rate for the sale of such companies is actually quite low, to be measured in only a few every several years. I never tried to imply that because the "perception" that Fram is lower quality means that all of the products that company makes are also poor quality. I am just stating the facts about who makes what, as it was clear from other posts some don't know this info.

Each individual plant that manufactures a product controls their own quality. Now, what you must understand, how the parent company ties in, is that they control the management at the factories, they control the capitol expenditures, the technology research, and most other resources they need to manufacture there products. So to think a parent compnay is irrevelant is not to understand how a company operates on a daily basis. So in short part of what you say is true, just don't be fooled into rash generalizations that you think should be the case in some perfect world that don't exist.


I sold auto parts for years( not anymore but I did ). I saw a lot of brands being traded around like credit card companies and banks. You had part brand XXX that may have been owned by 2-3 different parent companies in a 5 year span. I never saw the quality of the part change nor was there really a tie in between part quality and the parent company. Just was not an issue with auto parts and that is what we are discussing( not general business ).

It is a lot like credit cards and bank constantly being sold. You as the consumer seldom notice any difference. A small change here or there may be observed but overall the parts brand name represents a standard the doesn't really change much regardless of what conglomerate(sp?)owns the brand company at the time.

Feel free to disagree just relating my experiences. It matters not to me that Allied Signal owns both Fram and Autolite. I know the parent company, in regards to auto parts, is almost a non factor. I know through actual experience Fram is poor quality and Autolite plugs are decent quality regardless of the parent company that owns them. They are 2 totally different levels of part quality wise. The same applies to Champion and the other brands mentioned being owned by Federal Mogul. All 3 of those brands make excellent parts yet Champion plugs still flat out stink!

Parent company in auto parts generally means squat when you are talking one big company owning a bunch of established brands. The fastest way for that parent company to lose money on the purchase of brand XXX is to screw around with the quality of the part( unless it is raised )which is what made it popular and a good investment to begin with.
 
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That FRAM (substandard) and Autolite (good stuff) share a common corporate parent means nothing. Ask around on any of the small-block Ford (302, 351) enthusiast boards and they'll all tell you the same thing: use Autolite or Motorcraft copper plugs and nothing else. Autolite is also the OEM for Motorcraft branded plugs.
 
i bought bosch +4s because they were the only ones that came pre-gapped from the factory. it even states on the box not to mess with them because they are electronically set

i will have to invest in a spark plug gapper for next time so i can use motorcraft
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


The problem is the teeny, tiny grounds that they use on +4s weren't robust enough. I can assure in my case there were zero detonation issues and the plug was the part# Bosch called for the Ford 4.6 2V.


Sounds like a heat issue to me possibly...if the heat range is correct and there are no issues with the engine and NO modifications either..no chips, t stats, cams ect...any?


It is a heat issue, combustion temperature heat/pressure and a ground strap less the half the size of a normal one, but it was nothing to do with the heat range of the plug. Happened with two sets of plugs on the 4.6. The +4 is a useless technology, as they don't fire off of all 4 grounds anyway.


Actually the +4 is not useless tech. It has 4 precisely gapped electrodes so that as one gap increases to beyond the optimal distance the next one will bring things back to spec...which makes for a perfectly running engine.

I'm thinking that more likely they were used on a modified engine. or less possible you were given the incorrect cross reference for your car.

Like I have said I have used +4 and +2 on many of my cars engines (all nonmodded) and have never had ANY issues at all in a decade or more, but I have been using Bosch plugs for 25 years and never had any issues with any product they sold to me.
 
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