Some car makers say NO antiseize on spark plugs?

[Scdevon]

Jeeze. Just use a little anti-seize, people. It doesn't hurt anything.

Anti-seize doesn't have any torque multiplication properties, either. Torque specs are for "clean, lubricated threads." Use a small amount. Torque to specs. Sleep well at night.

You anti- anti seize people have never had to fight with a busted off plug in a cylinder head.

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: Scdevon

You anti- anti seize people have never had to fight with a busted off plug in a cylinder head.


Agreed. If you're changing your plugs every year or two, then you can very likely get away with just putting a little oil on the threads. [censored], you could probably install them dry with no problems. But if you're leaving said plugs in for 5 years/100k miles per factory recommendation, then you're ASKING for trouble if you install spark plugs in an aluminum head without antiseize.

And the notion that antiseize will 'insulate' a plug (either electrically or thermally)- that's ridiculous. Antiseize is a suspension of oil, (assorted types of) powdered metal, and maybe some graphite. If anything, squishing and tightening said metal powder into the threads will improve both thermal and electrical conductivity (You know- 'cause it's metal. And metal is a conductor). Though I doubt there would be any measurable difference either way, outside of laboratory conditions.

One thing that lots of people fail to understand about manufacturers recommendations is that they involve just as much a$$ covering as useful technical info. If an engine was put through extensive testing WITHOUT antiseize on the plugs, then for whomever is putting out the info, the safe, easy, and most well-documented recommendation would be to NOT use antiseize on said plugs. To recommend otherwise puts 'him' on this line. Now this doesn't mean that antiseize will cause problems... doesn't even mean that it won't be an IMPROVEMENT under certain operating conditions. It only means that whomever put out the info has verified that the engine worked well enough with no antiseize on the plugs, and he sees no reason to spend time/money on more extensive testing. It is NOT a commandment handed down from on high.

Also, I'm going to ask again: Can anybody confirm that the rather common 'silver' colored antiseize is in fact made with aluminum? (as has been claimed more than once here on BITOG) I seriously doubt it (considering how prone aluminum is to corrosion), but it doesn't say on the can.

 

[Audi Junkie]

afaik, the big cheap bottles of anti-seize are Ni based. I use that stuff on lug nuts...a whole 'nother issue.

 

[onion]

That may be the case. Now that you mention it, I've seen that Bostik Neversieze is available in standard form and in "pure nickel" form. The pure nickel is for certain special applications (not sure exactly what), but it's quite similar to the standard form (but a more dull color).

So yeah- maybe the 'standard' silver stuff is nickel based. That would make A LOT more sense than aluminum.

 

[severach]

Permatex Anti Seize MSDS votes for Aluminum and some other stuff. Copper and Nickel anti seizes are labeled.

Anti-seize is more than oil and aluminum powder. Some poorly formulated off brand anti-seize increase corrosion. I was using an off brand anti-seize on brake backing plates and by the next brake job the plates were heavily corroded around the areas applied. Backing plates done with prominent brand name anti-seize did not show the same problems.

Anti-seize was never a good fit for brake backing plates, just the best that was available at the time. I now use caliper grease on backing plates.

 

[paulo57509]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: GTO52
I have used anti seize for years on plug threads.
Then I read on a forum here in SA that the anti seize insulated the plug causing it to get hot and pinging can occur?
Or is that just a lot of nonsense?


That's the main reason I've heard not to use anti-seize. I read somewhere a while back that Mercedes says not to use anti-seize for this very reason. It insulates the plug from the cylinder head reducing heat transfer, and making the cylinder run hotter and produce detonation.


I've often wondered this myself. That's one of the reasons I switched to Champion, spark-plug-specific anti-seize. I have a couple of "pingers" but didn't notice any difference when I made the switch. I'm thinking my issue is more mileage and carbon related.

 

[ron917]

My bottle of Permatex 133K (the silvery stuff) lists Mineral Oil, Petroleum Distillates, Calcium Oxide, Aluminum and Graphite. I've used the stuff on spark plugs for many years with no problems.

 

[dwendt44]

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/lubricants/specialty_lubricants.htm

 

[demarpaint]

I've installed plugs with and w/o antiseize, and found using the antiseize was the better way for me. I apply a small amount about 2 threads up from the bottom of the plug with an artists brush. At least this way I know it is not near the electrode.

 

[Scdevon]

Originally Posted By: onion



One thing that lots of people fail to understand about manufacturers recommendations is that they involve just as much a$$ covering as useful technical info.


Car makers don't want to be responsible for some idiot consumer dipping the whole electrode end of the plug in a jar of anti seize and causing problems.

Some engineer or UAW gorilla screwing dry threaded spark plugs into your engine couldn't care less how easy or difficult they are to remove 10 years / 100,000 miles later. They never recommend ANYTHING that wasn't in or on your car when it left the factory including anti seize. This is all CYA.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
I know that Volkswagen specifically stated that you should not use antiseize when installing spark plugs


All manufacturers & service departments also say ridiculous things like...

• Transmission fluid is a lifetime item, no service is required.
• VR6 engines have chain noise?
• Our factory-trained technicians are the most knowledgeable people anywhere to work on your automobile.
• 1 liter per 1000 km is an acceptable oil consumption level.
• All vehicles normally leak fluids.
• Support your domestic car manufacturers (via buying badge-engineered Korean cars or vehicles wholly manufactured in Mexico of imported parts).
• 30 miles per gallon is excellent fuel economy.
• We've paid back our loan!
• What spec? We just use bulk 5w30 for everything, it's good enough.
• Your next oil change is due in 3 months or 3000 miles.
• Legally, we can't let you drive out of the bay like this but we just happen to have the one part on the shelf you need for $1200...

The automotive atrocities list goes on and on. Rely on your brain - experience & smarts tell you that a tiny, tiny dab of anti-seize on the plug threads will make your life easier the next time you go to remove them. The worst that happens is it runs like [censored] and you have to clean it off. While you're at it, put a tiny film of dielectric grease on the insulator to help get the boot off as well.

I would not use oil on the threads as it won't be able to stand up to the heat. Anti-seize is often rated up to 1600°F - 2000°F and is made for exactly this purpose.

N.B., When I was young, dumb & full of... vim

I was reinstalling the spark plugs in the '78 Plymouth and I thought 'YES, ANTI SEIZE! ANTI SEIZE FOR POWER! STRENGTH!' and proceeded to put a good coating of old, dried out anti-seize on the threads. Shortly thereafter, it started running like doody under heavy acceleration (should be noted that it would be heavy fuel usage, the 5.9l V8 made a lot of noise and drank a lot of unleaded but making that van go took time). Sure enough, I was getting blowby from having too much anti-seize on the plug threads. After cleaning & reinstallation, it ran fine once again. So just use a TINY dab and roll it into the threads with your finger. Ditto on the dielectric grease for the boots.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Scdevon
Originally Posted By: onion



One thing that lots of people fail to understand about manufacturers recommendations is that they involve just as much a$$ covering as useful technical info.


Car makers don't want to be responsible for some idiot consumer dipping the whole electrode end of the plug in a jar of anti seize and causing problems.

Some engineer or UAW gorilla screwing dry threaded spark plugs into your engine couldn't care less how easy or difficult they are to remove 10 years / 100,000 miles later. They never recommend ANYTHING that wasn't in or on your car when it left the factory including anti seize. This is all CYA.



Absolutely, every designer only cares about the assembly line, what happens in the field, even under warranty, is no longer a concern.

Besides, if the sparkplugs are stuck and damage threads upon removal, who do you think will pay to fix the threads after the warranty expires... the customer. Manufacturers just don't care because the cost will be pushed to the customer. And since most plugs are rated well beyond the warranty limit, what incentive do they have to make your life easier?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Absolutely, every designer only cares about the assembly line, what happens in the field, even under warranty, is no longer a concern.

Sounds like you need to have some conversations with some real automotive engineers and decision makers, man.

It might also help to read a news article every once in a while. One of the major lessons in recent years has been that the image you have of car companies -- i.e. nothing matters once the car leaves the dealership -- is suicide. Sustainability is important, which means brand loyalty and image are important, which means resale value is important, which means reliability and maintainability are important. Every car company that has been in trouble recently owes a major part of its problems to not recognizing that.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Absolutely, every designer only cares about the assembly line, what happens in the field, even under warranty, is no longer a concern.

Sounds like you need to have some conversations with some real automotive engineers and decision makers, man.

It might also help to read a news article every once in a while. One of the major lessons in recent years has been that the image you have of car companies -- i.e. nothing matters once the car leaves the dealership -- is suicide. Sustainability is important, which means brand loyalty and image are important, which means resale value is important, which means reliability and maintainability are important. Every car company that has been in trouble recently owes a major part of its problems to not recognizing that.


You are taking this line out of context. Remember we are talking about sparkplugs and general ease of maintenance and repair, none of which is a concern these days.

Sure, car manufacturers care about image, reliability... yes, operating costs... yes, durability... yes, ease of dissassembly in the field... fat NO, requirement to use as few special tools as possible... NO, Time to perform work ... NO etc. I think you get the picture.

 

[d00df00d]

No, I really don't. Requirement for special tools and time to perform work are inseparable from operating costs and ease of disassembly, not to mention general ease of maintenance and repair.

 

[mechtech2]

Anti seize on spark plugs can inhibit heat transfer, and make the plug run too hot.
It can also migrate to the firing end and cause misfires.

Are these real problems? I think a VERY little anti seize is a good thing, and I use it.

 

[deeter16317]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
So folks what do you think of using a bit of 10/30 oil on the threads? You think it is ok? Do you think that might inhibit electrical conductivity?



I've done it...it worked fine for me. Those that had it "coke", your heads must run hotter than anything I've ever used it on? It almost always comes out still "wet" for me? Mostly what I use oil on is plugs in small engines (lawn mower, etc.).

I currently use never-seize on both aluminum heads/steel heads...never had a plug problem. Of course I also don't tighten my plugs extremely tight either (just a little past snug). Never really saw any detriment by doing it either.

I think you'd lose more electrical connectivity in corroded grounds than your spark plug threads?

 

[atikovi]

Permatex 133K in every vehicle.

2009 Cadillac CTS:

1996 Ford Ranger:

2007 Chevy Avalanche:

1999 Honda Civic GX:

 

[brianl703]

I've used anti-seize on every spark plug I replace and I've never had a problem.

I don't put very much on--just a small dab in three places around the plug about 2 threads up from the firing end.

I do note that the automakers who don't recommend anti-seize on sparkplugs tend to be the same ones that didn't or don't put any sort of grease on their exposed electrical underhood connections.

 

[Trav]

I am a firm believer in "follow the money to get to the truth"
No antiseize on the plugs,behind the rotors on F150's and other vehicles that are prone to frozen roters,no grease on connections etc may add up to a buck a car.

Multiply that by a few million cars over the years.
The bean counters IMO may factor in more than we think.