Snow tires worth it?

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Originally Posted By: IndigoToy
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
I really have had few problems with all-seasons on a wide variety of vehicles. After all, most of the time, even here in snow country, the roads are clear. And, I've seen a lot of people off the road with winter tires on. The driver is a lot more important than the tires. I wonder if winter tires give some a false sense of security and then they overdo it?

I forgot to add--we always say that the first sign of winter around here is when you start to see the 4-wheel drive vehicles in the ditch by the side of the road. They're usually the first to wipe out.


Clear road surface or not. A softer more pliable rubber in cold weather will allow a vehicle to stop faster. The false sense of security argument doesn't work in this regard.

With respect to 4wheel drive trucks and SUV's, this is very true. There is a false sense of security brought on by having better accelerating ability thanks to 4 wheels propelling car vs 2.

Here is where the drivers knowldege of the laws of physics come into play. When you need to stop you still have only 4 wheels like any other car on the road and all vehicles require stopping distances that increase proportionate to the speed they are travelling.

In conclusion, a good number (not all) of SUV and truck drivers travel faster then conditions permit, because they think - Hey if I can accelerate better, I can stop better too. WRONG! and when they land in a ditch or worse, some of them just don't understand.


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YOu hit the nail in the head, nuf said about this subject and to all the naysayers: it's your own dear life/your money/your car so it's up to you. I too, won't let my wifey out of the driveway w/o snows. 1 accident deductable (and all the associated rate adjustments for years to come, ignoring any life/death issues that may come with it) and the snows will be paid for in full already.

Q.
 
Yes, winter tires are worth it.

I've had Pirelli Winter Carving on a 2000 Beetle, Brigestone Blizzak Revo 1 on a 2001 Outback, and currently have (or will, once I change over for winter) Nokian Hakkapeliitta SUV on my RX400h. In all except the RX (I only recent got it) I had the opportunity to drive in the snow with the all seasons and then the winters.

The difference in start, stop and steer was marked.
 
Originally Posted By: Quest
YOu hit the nail in the head, nuf said about this subject and to all the naysayers: it's your own dear life/your money/your car so it's up to you. I too, won't let my wifey out of the driveway w/o snows. 1 accident deductable (and all the associated rate adjustments for years to come, ignoring any life/death issues that may come with it) and the snows will be paid for in full already.

Q.

I've been in an absolute deluge of snow around Donner Summit. I saw trucks with chains going maybe 40 MPH.

People do all sorts of nutty things. I take the 25 MPH chain-required speed limit very seriously even if I don't have chains. I've seen a few chains that seemed to have freed themselves from the tire and ended up on the road.
 
to put it simply....traction = control.

without traction from snow tires, you have a harder time accelerating, steering, & braking.

Think ABS helps? Not without traction.
Think Vehicle Stability control helps? Not without traction
Think AWD/4WD helps? Not without traction....

to maximize all the safety features on cars/trucks--- you need to maximize traction -- and snow tires do that in the winter conditions.

Originally Posted By: sp33dy_gr33n
Snow tires are worth their weight in gold. I put Bridgestone Blizzak WS60's on my '08 Toyota Prius and was truly amazed on how well they worked. They are amazing on ice too.

This is a good video too from Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc2GRL8CQdE

Snow tires are a great idea, and you extend the life of your all-season / summer tires automatically!

------------------------------------
This is solely my personal opinion.





If you go to one of their later videos, the one with the Crown Vic & Benz C-class:

The Crown Vic wore Nokian WR all-season tires --- this is disturbingly bad.
The Benz with "all-season" tires were actually summer tires
 
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Ok guys I am sold. However, I just found out that along with my second set of wheels I will also need Pressure Sensors that are $70/each!

Anyway, I think we will put the tires on December 1st and run them until March 5th. That would be roughly 14 weeks and about 4,000 miles.

Do you guys buy online or do you buy from a local tire dealer?
 
Running without the pressure sensors might affect your warranty. You should check to be sure.

I almost always buy online, usually from TireRack.com. The only exception is when I need something FAST or that TireRack doesn't carry, e.g. when I got my current Falken FK-452s.
 
Sorry to hijack this thread but since we are talking about snow tires:

I found a deal for a set of 4 used Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 winter tires with 5000 miles and wheels for $125. I am seriously thinking about buying it.

Now where I live, it does not snow that much plus I have a set of Pirelli P4 All Seasons which I think will do fine.

My Q is: Can I use the winter tires all winter, even if there is no snow?I do now want to keep on switching tires between snow falls.

Thanks,
SMB
 
Originally Posted By: SMB
Sorry to hijack this thread but since we are talking about snow tires:

I found a deal for a set of 4 used Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 winter tires with 5000 miles and wheels for $125. I am seriously thinking about buying it.

Now where I live, it does not snow that much plus I have a set of Pirelli P4 All Seasons which I think will do fine.

My Q is: Can I use the winter tires all winter, even if there is no snow?I do now want to keep on switching tires between snow falls.

Thanks,
SMB



I ran WS-50's on a Civic for four winters. They should do fine on dry pavement unless the outside temp gets much above 50 degrees F. Warmer temps makes the handling of this tire a little extra squirrely.
 
I have used Bridgestone Blizzak's for years and love them. After 8 winters the Blizzak's on my Grand Prix are due to be replaced and I was thinking of getting performance snow tires this time around. How do they compare to full winter snow/ice tires verus all seasons? Closer to the all season or the ice tires? I've always been curious due to the somewhat sloppy handling of snow tires and have been tempted to try them. This time I was also trying to find winter tires made in the US and my only option is a Goodyear Ultra Grip GW2 tire. I think I've seen them on CV police cars. How will they be compared to my Blizzak WS-50's? It is hard to find a review for them but those that have had them seem to love them but they mostly talk about wed/dry handling and deep snow. So are they not so great on ice? I see the GW3 tires are highly rated but GW2 tirs seem to be less widely used or available so test results are non-existent.
 
Originally Posted By: robbobster
2WD with Snow tires is superior to 4WD with All-Season tires.

Friend of mine's dad once got stuck in his AWD BMW 3-series on all-season tires. Said friend went and picked him up in an M3 (RWD) on snow tires.
 
If you buy a good set yes. However the majority of my winter is dry or wet and some winter tires don't do even as well as a mediorce all-season in those situations. I imagine Bridgestone redesigned the Blizzack WS-50. They are horrid in the wet, I could easily spin the tire taking off and braking was compromised. However on winter roads I found myself going at or near speed limit on the interstate with full confidence and control

Research what you buy and they typically last about 30-40k miles in my experience. They will run longer but after 5/32" tread depth they are nothing more than an all-season tire.

My experience has been 5 sets of winter tires. Currently my ride has worn ultra performance all-seasons. My wife has light winter tires called Nokian WR G2's. Basically a performance all-season tire(very good one) that is also rated as a winter tire.
 
Originally Posted By: rjundi
I imagine Bridgestone redesigned the Blizzack WS-50. They are horrid in the wet, I could easily spin the tire taking off and braking was compromised. However on winter roads I found myself going at or near speed limit on the interstate with full confidence and control

AFAIK:

Most winter tires have hydrophilic tread compounds to help them stick to snow, which is a liability in the rain because liquid water is slipperier. For wet roads, you want a hydrophobic tread compound to push the water out of the way (which, in turn, would be a liability on snow).

All-season tires usually make some kind of compromise between the two (obviously).
 
Originally Posted By: IndigoToy
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
The driver is a lot more important than the tires.




Here is where the drivers knowldege of the laws of physics come into play.

When you need to stop you still have only 4 wheels like any other car on the road and all vehicles require stopping distances that increase proportionate to the speed they are travelling.




THE DRIVER is the single most important element...

I have owned 4wd vehicles my entire life, and for what its worth, you can stop faster in snow (with a locked 4wd system) than a typical car...two reasons:

#1 the locked 4wd system over-rides the antilock brakes...thereby allowing more stopping power (and the DRIVER to feather the brakes without the antilock releasing/engaging the brakes).

#2 the locked 4wd system essentially locks all the wheels together, so if you have one wheel that is slipping/trying to slide (due to road conditions or even a grabby brake), it doesn't slide because the other three wheels with traction FORCE it to keep rotating...a sliding tire has less traction than a rolling tire.

And again, the main factor is the DRIVER, and that they know their cars (and their own) limitations.
 
Originally Posted By: robbobster
2WD with Snow tires is superior to 4WD with All-Season tires.



Depends on the driver and vehicle...maybe in an AWD vehicle, but a 4wd vehicle is different.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: rjundi
I imagine Bridgestone redesigned the Blizzack WS-50. They are horrid in the wet, I could easily spin the tire taking off and braking was compromised. However on winter roads I found myself going at or near speed limit on the interstate with full confidence and control

AFAIK:

Most winter tires have hydrophilic tread compounds to help them stick to snow, which is a liability in the rain because liquid water is slipperier. For wet roads, you want a hydrophobic tread compound to push the water out of the way (which, in turn, would be a liability on snow).

All-season tires usually make some kind of compromise between the two (obviously).

That sounds like GC4LUNCH except without the almost religious fervor that nothing except a "3 season" tire is appropriate for rainy conditions in moderate to hot weather.

In any case, I think the typical heavy siping in winter tires might compensate for the hydrophilic properties of the rubber compounds used. Personally I'd think the heavy siping in winter tires might not be ideal when there are clear conditions (even if it's cold) such as winter days without snow on the ground or when it's wet. I thought that too much siping makes it a little squirmy and siping always seems to cause strange wear patterns where the forward section of a tread block wears faster than the trailing section at the sipe. This seems to be pronounced in directional tires or in cars where the rotation pattern doesn't reverse the tire's direction.
 
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
Originally Posted By: IndigoToy
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
The driver is a lot more important than the tires.




Here is where the drivers knowldege of the laws of physics come into play.

When you need to stop you still have only 4 wheels like any other car on the road and all vehicles require stopping distances that increase proportionate to the speed they are travelling.




THE DRIVER is the single most important element...

I have owned 4wd vehicles my entire life, and for what its worth, you can stop faster in snow (with a locked 4wd system) than a typical car...two reasons:

#1 the locked 4wd system over-rides the antilock brakes...thereby allowing more stopping power (and the DRIVER to feather the brakes without the antilock releasing/engaging the brakes).

#2 the locked 4wd system essentially locks all the wheels together, so if you have one wheel that is slipping/trying to slide (due to road conditions or even a grabby brake), it doesn't slide because the other three wheels with traction FORCE it to keep rotating...a sliding tire has less traction than a rolling tire.

And again, the main factor is the DRIVER, and that they know their cars (and their own) limitations.

This is one of the goofiest things I've ever read. The 4wd system does not overright the ABS. ABS doesn't necessarily allow one to stop shorter, but it certainly does allow one to steer to maintain control while braking to the max.

A locked 4wd system does not lock all four wheels. It locks the front and rear drive shafts together. Open differentials still allow each wheel on that axle to turn at independent speeds. Limited slip or locker differentials lock together the wheels on each axle if that type of differential is fitted.

I have real winter tires, locked 4wd, rear LS diff, AND ABS, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
Originally Posted By: robbobster
2WD with Snow tires is superior to 4WD with All-Season tires.



Depends on the driver and vehicle...maybe in an AWD vehicle, but a 4wd vehicle is different.

For any judgment to be made, there probably needs to be specifics about the car, the tires, and the conditions.

There are always going to be tradeoffs and different conditions. Definitely the winter tires with 2WD are likely to brake and handle better. It might also depend on how good the ice traction is. I've seen a RWD pickup on a slightly icy road just spin its tires trying to get up an incline exiting a parking lot; the lot was a couple of inches below the main road. AWD with all seasons might just make it up that incline since the icier section was where the rear tires were.

And nobody seems to have mentioned possibly the most important thing when it comes to snow traction, which is contact pressure. I've heard of some tires of the same size (and even same tread pattern like the M+S and summer version of the Pirelli P Zero Nero) where the better snow traction came from a smaller contact patch due to different carcass construction. A lot of people getting winter tires go to narrower tires and I've even heard of using smaller wheels (if it still fits over the brakes/rotors). Often a heavier vehicle does better in the snow if the tires aren't way oversized. Then there's weight distribution on FWD vehicles which can be heavily biased towards the front. It's certainly important to get traction on the drive wheels to start moving, but a lot of people seem to forget that often the start of trouble is when the non-driven tires lose traction which causes the driven tires to break loose.
 
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