Short. OCIs can actually harm engines- emissions

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Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: chrisri
The more you change oil (unnecessary) the more times you start your car with oil system not primed, which, in my book, isn't all that good.


Change oil filter every other OCI.

Sorry, can't see the point in this practice with long OCI we have here.
 
Unless you are filling the oil pump so it will actually pump, you're not "priming" anything... The pump is simply filling the cavity in filter and passageways in the engine... If the pump ever lost it's prime, it'd never build oil pressure... This is why automotive oil pumps are filled with oil or light grease when installed or replaced...

PRIME -- prime2
prīm/
verb
verb: prime; 3rd person present: primes; past tense: primed; past participle: primed; gerund or present participle: priming

1.
make (something) ready for use or action, in particular.
prepare (a firearm or explosive device) for firing or detonation.
synonyms: prepare, load, get ready
"he primed the gun"
cover (a surface) with a preparatory coat of paint in order to prevent the absorption of subsequent layers of paint.
pour or spray liquid into (a pump) before starting in order to seal the moving parts and facilitate its operation.
inject extra fuel into (the cylinder or carburetor of an internal combustion engine) in order to facilitate starting.
(of a steam engine or its boiler) mix water with the steam being passed into the cylinder.
Biochemistry
serve as a starting material for (a polymerization process).
2.
prepare (someone) for a situation or task, typically by supplying them with relevant information.
"the sentries had been primed to admit him without challenge"
synonyms: brief, fill in, prepare, put in the picture, inform, advise, instruct, coach, drill; More
informalclue in, give someone the lowdown
"Lucy had primed him car
 
Originally Posted By: mctmatt

At temperatures below zero you will not be able to start your car with mineral oils while the synthetic oils may be used to -40° or -50°F. Oils are so thick that the normal method of viscosity measurement is not possible. Instead we measure if the oil can even be pumped or poured. Again, we are only discussing a single category of oil, the multi-grade 10w30 API / SAE grade.


That is a crock if I ever heard one. Most of the heavy commercial diesels in the U.S. are on conventional 15w40 and start just fine at sub zero weather, even without a block heater plugged in. Not the best way to go about things, but it is what it is. Many fleets demand their drivers to shut trucks off during rest periods, and those are typically for 10 hrs per FMCSA regulations. Heat and cooling are provided by auxiliary sources. Only in extreme cold do fleets allow periodic idling to prevent fuel gelling issues and such. Many localities will fine the driver if they let a commercial truck idle more than 10-15 minutes an hour, and many places that trucks are stopped for driver rest periods do not have outlets to plug in block heaters.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: mctmatt

At temperatures below zero you will not be able to start your car with mineral oils while the synthetic oils may be used to -40° or -50°F. Oils are so thick that the normal method of viscosity measurement is not possible. Instead we measure if the oil can even be pumped or poured. Again, we are only discussing a single category of oil, the multi-grade 10w30 API / SAE grade.


That is a crock if I ever heard one. Most of the heavy commercial diesels in the U.S. are on conventional 15w40 and start just fine at sub zero weather, even without a block heater plugged in. Not the best way to go about things, but it is what it is. Many fleets demand their drivers to shut trucks off during rest periods, and those are typically for 10 hrs per FMCSA regulations. Heat and cooling are provided by auxiliary sources. Only in extreme cold do fleets allow periodic idling to prevent fuel gelling issues and such. Many localities will fine the driver if they let a commercial truck idle more than 10-15 minutes an hour, and many places that trucks are stopped for driver rest periods do not have outlets to plug in block heaters.


+1
 
TFB1, yes you are right, oil pumps are primed, not filters and galleries. I simply used wrong word.
My point was that it's not the same thing to start the engine normally when operating ADV should prevent oil drain from galleries and filter, and start engine after oil change ( and filter) when filter and passages are empty.
There's a 2-3 sec difference , that is why I'm not a fan of early oil changes.
 
There is a problem with too many of short OCIs.You wash out the ZDDP that take time to rebound on critical engine parts, that needs maturation or usage. Detergents act quicker, so the washout. And that issue was discussed many times before...
 
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Originally Posted By: Pontual
There is a problem with too many of short OCIs.You wash out the ZDDP that take time to rebound on critical engine parts, that needs maturation or usage. Detergents act quicker, so the washout. And that issue was discussed many times before...


What's your definition of a short OCI ?
 
Originally Posted By: zach1900
Ford and Conoco did a study loosely based on this. I'm trying to find it.


There are at least 2 mid-2,000's SAE papers about this topic (one already cited earlier).

This topic has been discussed to death if you search Google.

http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
http://papers.sae.org/2003-01-3119/

"In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils."
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: zach1900
Ford and Conoco did a study loosely based on this. I'm trying to find it.


There are at least 2 mid-2,000's SAE papers about this topic (one already cited earlier).

This topic has been discussed to death if you search Google.

http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
http://papers.sae.org/2003-01-3119/

"In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils."


Interesting being friction modifiers tend to lose their impact over time.

Related to this, this is why switching from brand to brand isn't wise. All oils are compatible, but it's better to stick with one chemistry and allow it to work and seat within the engine.

The down side of longer drains though could be increase varnish/oxidation due to depleted TBN. Give and take like anything else....
 
Originally Posted By: Pontual
There is a problem with too many of short OCIs.You wash out the ZDDP that take time to rebound on critical engine parts, that needs maturation or usage. Detergents act quicker, so the washout. And that issue was discussed many times before...


Are you a chemist, or a tribologist? Because I don't think either would agree with you.....
 
SAE paper with 'fleet' vehicles. What about my minivan soccer mom remote started all season multiple-starts/restarts daily fuel diluting turbo'd high compression non turbo'd vvt nonvvt low compression e85 diesel e10 non-E fueled overheating underheating sludging notsludging...

The problems with ANY study or paper are the VARIABLES. There is no SAE paper or independent study that matches my engine, oil chosen, driving style, automaker engineering defects, filter chosen, or any other of the numerous parameters.

I prefer to recycle oil and prefer not to recycle engines or vehicles.

From what remember at work, oxidized AW additives still perform AW function in synergy with non-oxidized additive. Together, they work better. But, I haven't written a SAE paper on it. And you wonder why some(but not all) are not seeing drastic increase in wear, exclusive of oxidation/nitration/viscosity, with extended oil change intervals? Frantz oil filter never change oil anyone?

And, that disgustingly filthy dirty jug/bottle non-ISO oil will always increase initially wear after a change until that bottle of dirt filled oil is filtered. Since we would filter new oil for the machinery prior to use, or order specific ISO filtered bulk(vs non filtered), we didn't experience that so-called increase in wear after a fluid change. And again, been too lazy to write a paper on it but have seen what is on the bottom of your oil bottles/jugs(really scary VOA microscope looky). I just haven't seen the washing out of old additives prior to allowing new additives to take effect, as there is continuous displacement/dispersion. Again, would be additive type dependent and most oils have a little of this/and that/and what you can't see.

If you have been study-lobotomized, eco-lobotomized, sae-paper-lobotomized, enviro-lobotomized,.... you are programmed to not thinkly freely enough and can't make simple judgement or adjustments to issues or failures.

Emissions? VW had the right idea!
 
Originally Posted By: Pontual
There is a problem with too many of short OCIs.You wash out the ZDDP that take time to rebound on critical engine parts, that needs maturation or usage. Detergents act quicker, so the washout. And that issue was discussed many times before...
Up here in the EPA dictated north there isn't much ZDDP left in new oils to wash out.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Pontual
There is a problem with too many of short OCIs.You wash out the ZDDP that take time to rebound on critical engine parts, that needs maturation or usage. Detergents act quicker, so the washout. And that issue was discussed many times before...


What's your definition of a short OCI ?


Doesn't apply, since in this thread case isn't short OCI issue. It's a series of TOO SHORT OCIs.
 
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: Pontual
There is a problem with too many of short OCIs.You wash out the ZDDP that take time to rebound on critical engine parts, that needs maturation or usage. Detergents act quicker, so the washout. And that issue was discussed many times before...


Are you a chemist, or a tribologist? Because I don't think either would agree with you.....


You could get this lesson from a tribologist vid:

Detergents fight AW, fact! FF to 1:38 and you have it. Too much detergent in modern motor oil. f you keep changing you won't stablish AW film, you'll remove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kAaT__Murw
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Up here in the EPA dictated north there isn't much ZDDP left in new oils to wash out.

Many examples had a lot less years ago than they do now. Just because limits weren't in place before didn't mean they dumped it in by the shovelful.
 
MO is that the ZDDP level is lower than SG oils, BUT, still a lot higher than 60-70's oils. There is critical ZDDP to be washed out with new/renewed detergency of constant changes. If there is less ZDDP, more reason to not have it disturbed, wouldn't?
 
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Originally Posted By: Pontual
MO is that the ZDDP level is lower than SG oils, BUT, still a lot higher than 60-70's oils. There is critical ZDDP to be washed out with new/renewed detergency of constant changes. If there is less ZDDP, more reason to not have it disturbed, wouldn't?


What evidence do you have that additive pack detergent can remove ZDDP? My understanding is that it "Bonds" to the surface of the metal. I doubt detergent intended to keep contaminants in suspension would have any effect on that bond.
 
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: Pontual
There is a problem with too many of short OCIs.You wash out the ZDDP that take time to rebound on critical engine parts, that needs maturation or usage. Detergents act quicker, so the washout. And that issue was discussed many times before...


Are you a chemist, or a tribologist? Because I don't think either would agree with you.....


You could get this lesson from a tribologist vid:

Detergents fight AW, fact! FF to 1:38 and you have it. Too much detergent in modern motor oil. f you keep changing you won't stablish AW film, you'll remove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kAaT__Murw




That video does not say what you think it does.....
The point the guy was making was.....Too much detergent in the ratio of ZDDP to detergent will keep the bond from forming. It does NOT say that changing a properly configured oil more frequently will keep the bond from happening. It warns about oil with too much of a detergent pack, particularly during run in of high spring pressure engines. It does NOT warn against frequent oil changes, with the appropriate oil.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: chrisri
The more you change oil (unnecessary) the more times you start your car with oil system not primed, which, in my book, isn't all that good.


Change oil filter every other OCI.

Sorry, can't see the point in this practice with long OCI we have here.


I halved my OCI (still 11k miles) but I keep the oil filter for the full intended 22k.
 
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: Pontual
MO is that the ZDDP level is lower than SG oils, BUT, still a lot higher than 60-70's oils. There is critical ZDDP to be washed out with new/renewed detergency of constant changes. If there is less ZDDP, more reason to not have it disturbed, wouldn't?


What evidence do you have that additive pack detergent can remove ZDDP? My understanding is that it "Bonds" to the surface of the metal. I doubt detergent intended to keep contaminants in suspension would have any effect on that bond.


Do you know the basic, The difference between detergent and dispersant?
confused.gif
 
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