Say No To E15 !
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Homer Simpson:
“Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.”
Look at this for the farmer side:
http://www.mngrownethanol.info/index.php...8&Itemid=62
Two sides to every stat on ethanol. I respect your opinion on choice but dino oil will someday be gone. We must look at all alternates.
dave
Dave
“Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.”
Look at this for the farmer side:
http://www.mngrownethanol.info/index.php...8&Itemid=62
Two sides to every stat on ethanol. I respect your opinion on choice but dino oil will someday be gone. We must look at all alternates.
dave
Dave
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Johnny
They should mandate all government employees (including congress) has to drink their water out of tin cups.
That is rude. Some of us actually do follow the science, and maintain a disciplined, conservative path towards transitioning advanced technology if and when it makes sense.
There is a balance between progress and excessive negativity that would leave us in the stone age.
They should mandate all government employees (including congress) has to drink their water out of tin cups.
That is rude. Some of us actually do follow the science, and maintain a disciplined, conservative path towards transitioning advanced technology if and when it makes sense.
There is a balance between progress and excessive negativity that would leave us in the stone age.
That's right, communist EPA wackos know nothing about science only emotions.
just google the dangers of ethanol.
E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) produces higher amounts of a group of chemicals known as aldehydes than gasoline when burned. In addition to likely being carcinogens, aldehydes are also a precursor to the formation of ozone. Breathing ozone has been shown to cause severe respiratory problems—which is why those ionizer air cleaners that are so pervasive these days are a complete crock; they may clean particles out of the air, but they generate ozone in the process.
http://gas2.org/2009/12/14/study-finds-ethanol-use-increases-ozone-and-carcinogen-pollution/
just google the dangers of ethanol.
E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) produces higher amounts of a group of chemicals known as aldehydes than gasoline when burned. In addition to likely being carcinogens, aldehydes are also a precursor to the formation of ozone. Breathing ozone has been shown to cause severe respiratory problems—which is why those ionizer air cleaners that are so pervasive these days are a complete crock; they may clean particles out of the air, but they generate ozone in the process.
http://gas2.org/2009/12/14/study-finds-ethanol-use-increases-ozone-and-carcinogen-pollution/
absolutely political [censored].
Ethanol's byproducts are nothing to sneeze at. They could turn out to be really scary.
I lose more than 10% in fuel economy on E10. This is across a lot of different platforms!
Ethanol is bad stuff, and costs you in so many ways, seen and unseen.
Ethanol's byproducts are nothing to sneeze at. They could turn out to be really scary.
I lose more than 10% in fuel economy on E10. This is across a lot of different platforms!
Ethanol is bad stuff, and costs you in so many ways, seen and unseen.
Originally Posted By: bmod305
Homer Simpson:
“Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.”
I would agree that people who do not understand statistics are easily misinformed by them, and those people are often exploited, yes.
Originally Posted By: bmod305
Look at this for the farmer side:
http://www.mngrownethanol.info/index.php...8&Itemid=62
On behalf of Dr. Michael Graboski of Colorado School of Mines, Douglas Tiffany at U of Minn., and Dr. Tad Patzek at The University of Texas at Austin, I am offended that you would trust Merrill Lynch and the Renewable Fuels Association (at best), or a bunch of media blurbs and "Administrator" (at worst) to tell you what to think about ethanol.
P.S. I am also offended that you did not read through the documents I pointed out. There is conclusive data there.
Homer Simpson:
“Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.”
I would agree that people who do not understand statistics are easily misinformed by them, and those people are often exploited, yes.
Originally Posted By: bmod305
Look at this for the farmer side:
http://www.mngrownethanol.info/index.php...8&Itemid=62
On behalf of Dr. Michael Graboski of Colorado School of Mines, Douglas Tiffany at U of Minn., and Dr. Tad Patzek at The University of Texas at Austin, I am offended that you would trust Merrill Lynch and the Renewable Fuels Association (at best), or a bunch of media blurbs and "Administrator" (at worst) to tell you what to think about ethanol.
P.S. I am also offended that you did not read through the documents I pointed out. There is conclusive data there.
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Johnny
They should mandate all government employees (including congress) has to drink their water out of tin cups.
That is rude. Some of us actually do follow the science, and maintain a disciplined, conservative path towards transitioning advanced technology if and when it makes sense.
There is a balance between progress and excessive negativity that would leave us in the stone age.
Not rude, nothing wrong with tin cups. I have one outside to drink water out of while I am doing yard work.
Originally Posted By: Johnny
They should mandate all government employees (including congress) has to drink their water out of tin cups.
That is rude. Some of us actually do follow the science, and maintain a disciplined, conservative path towards transitioning advanced technology if and when it makes sense.
There is a balance between progress and excessive negativity that would leave us in the stone age.
Not rude, nothing wrong with tin cups. I have one outside to drink water out of while I am doing yard work.
I hate Eanything! My boat does not like it either.
I'm not really for or against E-10 or E anything. Several years ago MI changed their law regarding labeling so we now have no idea if Ethanol is in our gas or not, I'd assume it usually is. Regardless all my gas engines run with no issues.
As for whether E85 is a net gain or loss on energy it is pretty hard to compare. It obvioulsy takes a lot more energy than is in a gallon of E85 to actually deliver it to my local gas station (gallon delivered + energy to produce and get it there). But we can be just as certain that it takes more than a gallons worth of gasoline energy to deliver a gallon of gasoline to my local gas station as well. There isn't a solar powered well behind the gas station producing refined gasoline that I know of. Does anyone ever do a study to show how much energy was used to produce a gallon of gas?
As for whether E85 is a net gain or loss on energy it is pretty hard to compare. It obvioulsy takes a lot more energy than is in a gallon of E85 to actually deliver it to my local gas station (gallon delivered + energy to produce and get it there). But we can be just as certain that it takes more than a gallons worth of gasoline energy to deliver a gallon of gasoline to my local gas station as well. There isn't a solar powered well behind the gas station producing refined gasoline that I know of. Does anyone ever do a study to show how much energy was used to produce a gallon of gas?
You think E10 or E15 is good-wait until you accidentally have some old gasohol 2-stroke around and run it in an outboard or chainsaw-you'll overheat it & take YEARS off it's life. I've also noticed a 10% MPG loss running it as well, & I'm convinced that some gas already contains in excess of 10% now. At least with diesel I don't have to worry about it!
Ugh...we already pay enough for subsidies given to oil companies, do we really need another for ethanol?
No thanks!
No thanks!
I heard it discussed before that if the E15 mandate happens, there may be a requirement to offer E0, which would be great as E0 is impossible to find in many places now.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Johnny
They should mandate all government employees (including congress) has to drink their water out of tin cups.
That is rude. Some of us actually do follow the science, and maintain a disciplined, conservative path towards transitioning advanced technology if and when it makes sense.
There is a balance between progress and excessive negativity that would leave us in the stone age.
Not rude, nothing wrong with tin cups. I have one outside to drink water out of while I am doing yard work.
What is rude is that you present a "punishment" of sorts on government folks as if they were all a bunch of dolts who just act on emotion and do not have a thought process of their own. Hey, why not give 'em a taste of their own medicine, right?!?
Meanwhile some of the top scientists and engineers in their respective fields are within the government. Don't want to believe me? Dont. But it is true. Don't let politics, EEO, AA, E15, handouts/bailouts and all the other garbage programs and processes and mandates let you paint too broad a brush. Then it just shows that you don't have a clue and are just as skewed in your thought process as the person cheering on E15... Just in another area.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Johnny
They should mandate all government employees (including congress) has to drink their water out of tin cups.
That is rude. Some of us actually do follow the science, and maintain a disciplined, conservative path towards transitioning advanced technology if and when it makes sense.
There is a balance between progress and excessive negativity that would leave us in the stone age.
Not rude, nothing wrong with tin cups. I have one outside to drink water out of while I am doing yard work.
What is rude is that you present a "punishment" of sorts on government folks as if they were all a bunch of dolts who just act on emotion and do not have a thought process of their own. Hey, why not give 'em a taste of their own medicine, right?!?
Meanwhile some of the top scientists and engineers in their respective fields are within the government. Don't want to believe me? Dont. But it is true. Don't let politics, EEO, AA, E15, handouts/bailouts and all the other garbage programs and processes and mandates let you paint too broad a brush. Then it just shows that you don't have a clue and are just as skewed in your thought process as the person cheering on E15... Just in another area.
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Quote:
Meanwhile some of the top scientists and engineers in their respective fields are within the government.
Which fields?
E-whatever is simply an excuse to justify the subsidies going to farmers which buys votes with other peoples money. That's all it's about.
As posted above there are numerous studies stating that it is a very inefficient process so efficacy is certainly not the priority. Competing with your car for food is not a good idea.
Meanwhile some of the top scientists and engineers in their respective fields are within the government.
Which fields?
E-whatever is simply an excuse to justify the subsidies going to farmers which buys votes with other peoples money. That's all it's about.
As posted above there are numerous studies stating that it is a very inefficient process so efficacy is certainly not the priority. Competing with your car for food is not a good idea.
JHZR2
Staff member
...more or less all aspects of science and engineering there are experts that blow away the knowledge of the folks on the "other side". And Im not saying that there arent super-bright folks on the private side too. Im just saying that not everybody in government is a dolt, yokel, imbecile, hired through some handout program to sit and do nothing but drum up worthless regulations.
And I was going to make the point that you did, which I agree very much.
Biodiesel is far more photon and resource-efficient than ethanol. I trust the energy efficiency of biodiesel having reviewed multiple analysis of it. I cannot say the same for ethanol.
Now, all that said, given the regulations, etc., it is nearly impossible to be a small-time farmer anymore (as if it wasnt always tough). We have indeed driven that business out other than in niche areas. Tempest, you dont really have farmland around LV, so you might not know beyond an internet snippit, but around here, farmland is rapidly getting converted (still) into mcmansions and townhome developments. Perhaps subsidies to some level keep some farmland still as farmland (perhaps a strategic move). I would hate to think what happens when we convert too much farmland to housing tracts, pollute the land underneath, and then have too much population to support... I suppose they WILL have to starve or attack the "haves" for bread. No?
And I was going to make the point that you did, which I agree very much.
Biodiesel is far more photon and resource-efficient than ethanol. I trust the energy efficiency of biodiesel having reviewed multiple analysis of it. I cannot say the same for ethanol.
Now, all that said, given the regulations, etc., it is nearly impossible to be a small-time farmer anymore (as if it wasnt always tough). We have indeed driven that business out other than in niche areas. Tempest, you dont really have farmland around LV, so you might not know beyond an internet snippit, but around here, farmland is rapidly getting converted (still) into mcmansions and townhome developments. Perhaps subsidies to some level keep some farmland still as farmland (perhaps a strategic move). I would hate to think what happens when we convert too much farmland to housing tracts, pollute the land underneath, and then have too much population to support... I suppose they WILL have to starve or attack the "haves" for bread. No?
Okay, all politcs above aside, I can see the benefit of ethanol. Brazil has weaned itself from imported oil. The difference is, Brazil uses sugar cane for ethanol. It costs significantly less to produce than corn. It would be too expensive to grow all our sugar cane in Hawaii and transport it halfway across the Pacific. That leaves Southeast Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida and Alabama. Sugar cane is not the answer for North America.
Growing enough corn for our energy needs would deplete the Ogallala aquifer to dangerous levels.
Ethanol has it's place in energy. But we need to work on Cellulosic, switchgrass, natually occuring prairie grasses, algae, etc...
And we need to stop forcing cars that are not designed to run on ethanol blended fuels to consume them. At some point, all new cars should be flex-fuel capable.
Many cars have had fuel systems destroyed by concentrations of ethanol greater than 10%. Whether or not that was the fuel company or the owner's fault is open to debate but I know a lady that had over $1000 worth of damage done to her MINI by ethanol.
Growing enough corn for our energy needs would deplete the Ogallala aquifer to dangerous levels.
Ethanol has it's place in energy. But we need to work on Cellulosic, switchgrass, natually occuring prairie grasses, algae, etc...
And we need to stop forcing cars that are not designed to run on ethanol blended fuels to consume them. At some point, all new cars should be flex-fuel capable.
Many cars have had fuel systems destroyed by concentrations of ethanol greater than 10%. Whether or not that was the fuel company or the owner's fault is open to debate but I know a lady that had over $1000 worth of damage done to her MINI by ethanol.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Give me an itemised list of those in which there aren't, including names.
I am not the one that made the assertion so you are asking the wrong person.
Give me an itemised list of those in which there aren't, including names.
I am not the one that made the assertion so you are asking the wrong person.
Quote:
Im just saying that not everybody in government is a dolt, yokel, imbecile, hired through some handout program to sit and do nothing but drum up worthless regulations.
It's interesting that you should mention the brilliance of government "experts" and disappearing farmland considering the fact that they are actively working to destroy some of the most productive farm land on the planet:
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/wa...sh/blog-129611/
As for family farms:
Quote:
The federal estate tax is applied to property as it passes from one generation to another. Family farms have always been uniquely affected by the tax, as the family may have vast and valuable land holdings, but not much in way of liquid assets. This can result in the property needing to be sold or mortgaged to pay the estate tax.
http://www.njelderlawestateplanning.com/...rom-estate-tax/
I guess the government "experts" on tax and economics consider this to be a good thing?
I'm just trying to figure out what government does so well with all these brilliant people they employ (for double the average compensation of the private sector)? What are all these engineers engineering? More ethanol factories?
Im just saying that not everybody in government is a dolt, yokel, imbecile, hired through some handout program to sit and do nothing but drum up worthless regulations.
It's interesting that you should mention the brilliance of government "experts" and disappearing farmland considering the fact that they are actively working to destroy some of the most productive farm land on the planet:
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/wa...sh/blog-129611/
As for family farms:
Quote:
The federal estate tax is applied to property as it passes from one generation to another. Family farms have always been uniquely affected by the tax, as the family may have vast and valuable land holdings, but not much in way of liquid assets. This can result in the property needing to be sold or mortgaged to pay the estate tax.
http://www.njelderlawestateplanning.com/...rom-estate-tax/
I guess the government "experts" on tax and economics consider this to be a good thing?
I'm just trying to figure out what government does so well with all these brilliant people they employ (for double the average compensation of the private sector)? What are all these engineers engineering? More ethanol factories?
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