AWD RAV4s are basically a FWD until slipping occurs. I would rotate the rear to the front. 4/32 is still good tread. Ed
Rotating Less Worn Tires to Front - FWD Vehicle
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Originally Posted By: Olas
Also, all the expensive parts of the car are at the front - a rear is much easier to rebuild/replace.
Yeah, but when the rear spins out on a curve, the front end can hit anything while it's in a spin.
Basically it was mentioned earlier, once the rears break away, it's very hard to recover whereas it's easier to notice that you're losing grip when it's the front and easier to control. I think once you hit 5/32's, that's a good time to replace tires if you're in a snowy region. 4/32's is recommended for rain and 2 or 3/32's is typically when they're considered bald by the state and time to replace time. So depends if you want to save the money or not, you could rotate them now and get a new pair of tires once you get snow on the ground, that could still be 4-5 months out.
Also, all the expensive parts of the car are at the front - a rear is much easier to rebuild/replace.
Yeah, but when the rear spins out on a curve, the front end can hit anything while it's in a spin.
Basically it was mentioned earlier, once the rears break away, it's very hard to recover whereas it's easier to notice that you're losing grip when it's the front and easier to control. I think once you hit 5/32's, that's a good time to replace tires if you're in a snowy region. 4/32's is recommended for rain and 2 or 3/32's is typically when they're considered bald by the state and time to replace time. So depends if you want to save the money or not, you could rotate them now and get a new pair of tires once you get snow on the ground, that could still be 4-5 months out.
At some point in a set of tires' lives after a rotation the rears will have less than the fronts despite everyone advising you shouldn't drive like this. I've heard to keep them within 2/32 and that scheduled rotations do this. You're up to 3/32. I'd rotate on my car, and keep running, absolutely. They'll come back into spec.
Agree on the monitoring by snow season aspect.
Agree on the monitoring by snow season aspect.
Originally Posted By: TWG1572
...her front tires on her AWD Rav4 are 4/32 and the backs are 7/32. These are General Altimax RT tires. The shop is recommending that she needs to start considering buying 2 new tires, and move the rear ones to the front.
That's a pretty accurate, professional, industry standard recommendation. I dont know your weather patterns up there, but here, in summer, it rains every afternoon all summer long, then very dry winters. So down here, I would absolutely replace those 4/32 tires, put the new tires on the back, and rotate the backs to the front. If its dry where you live, then you could rotate the tires and get a little more time out of them. (If I lived in Arizona, I would literally get 80K miles out of my tires. I would run them to the very end)
...her front tires on her AWD Rav4 are 4/32 and the backs are 7/32. These are General Altimax RT tires. The shop is recommending that she needs to start considering buying 2 new tires, and move the rear ones to the front.
That's a pretty accurate, professional, industry standard recommendation. I dont know your weather patterns up there, but here, in summer, it rains every afternoon all summer long, then very dry winters. So down here, I would absolutely replace those 4/32 tires, put the new tires on the back, and rotate the backs to the front. If its dry where you live, then you could rotate the tires and get a little more time out of them. (If I lived in Arizona, I would literally get 80K miles out of my tires. I would run them to the very end)
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Michelin states best tires in rear ...
That is because they deem the safest operation for the average driver to be under-steer in a partial traction-loss situation.
But, if your wife knows how to really drive and handle counter steering if the back end steps out (?), put the good ones on the front so she'll have best steering input and maximum braking control. Fronts do 70%+ or the braking, and that's safety device #1 ...
It's all about the driver, not so much about the tires ...
Michelin states best tires in rear ...
That is because they deem the safest operation for the average driver to be under-steer in a partial traction-loss situation.
But, if your wife knows how to really drive and handle counter steering if the back end steps out (?), put the good ones on the front so she'll have best steering input and maximum braking control. Fronts do 70%+ or the braking, and that's safety device #1 ...
It's all about the driver, not so much about the tires ...
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
My wife gets 4 tires at a time and rotated at 7k - and her stability system is the only hope
Nah, she's a very safe driver ...
There is still the issue of what happens with a complete failure front vs rear ...
(At least it's a new version Explorer and not on Firestone's of that era)
Nah, she's a very safe driver ...
There is still the issue of what happens with a complete failure front vs rear ...
(At least it's a new version Explorer and not on Firestone's of that era)
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Originally Posted By: 4WD
Michelin states best tires in rear ...
If you follow this logic you would never have a chance to rotate the tires because the front ones wear faster.
Michelin states best tires in rear ...
If you follow this logic you would never have a chance to rotate the tires because the front ones wear faster.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Ok - follow what you like - I buy 4 or 5 tire sets - and rotate them often.
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Michelin states best tires in rear ...
That is because they deem the safest operation for the average driver to be under-steer in a partial traction-loss situation.
But, if your wife knows how to really drive and handle counter steering if the back end steps out (?), put the good ones on the front so she'll have best steering input and maximum braking control. Fronts do 70%+ or the braking, and that's safety device #1 ...
It's all about the driver, not so much about the tires ...
Absolutely. An expert driver on a race track would be able to take the car to it's absolute limits of it's setup. An expert road driver would see to it that the car never approaches a danger zone unnecessarily (and be able to deal with it if such a situation does arise).
But most of us (definitely including me) don't have these skills. Mostly the higher people rate their driving skills the worse they actually are....
Claud.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Michelin states best tires in rear ...
That is because they deem the safest operation for the average driver to be under-steer in a partial traction-loss situation.
But, if your wife knows how to really drive and handle counter steering if the back end steps out (?), put the good ones on the front so she'll have best steering input and maximum braking control. Fronts do 70%+ or the braking, and that's safety device #1 ...
It's all about the driver, not so much about the tires ...
Absolutely. An expert driver on a race track would be able to take the car to it's absolute limits of it's setup. An expert road driver would see to it that the car never approaches a danger zone unnecessarily (and be able to deal with it if such a situation does arise).
But most of us (definitely including me) don't have these skills. Mostly the higher people rate their driving skills the worse they actually are....
Claud.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
My wife gets 4 tires at a time and rotated at 7k - and her stability system is the only hope
Nah, she's a very safe driver ...
There is still the issue of what happens with a complete failure front vs rear ...
The remedy for a blowout at highway speeds (front or rear tire) is to mash the gas pedal to the floor to stabilize the vehicle, then slowly let off the gas and steer towards the shoulder. Tell her that, and she should be alright.
My wife gets 4 tires at a time and rotated at 7k - and her stability system is the only hope
Nah, she's a very safe driver ...
There is still the issue of what happens with a complete failure front vs rear ...
The remedy for a blowout at highway speeds (front or rear tire) is to mash the gas pedal to the floor to stabilize the vehicle, then slowly let off the gas and steer towards the shoulder. Tell her that, and she should be alright.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Michelin states best tires in rear ...
All tire manufacturers and all tire retailers advise putting the tires with the most tread in the rear. Reputable shops would not mount them in the front. It does not matter whether the car is RWD or FWD.
Michelin states best tires in rear ...
All tire manufacturers and all tire retailers advise putting the tires with the most tread in the rear. Reputable shops would not mount them in the front. It does not matter whether the car is RWD or FWD.
Originally Posted By: Claud
I think the shop is offering sound advice. At 4/32 the rears are nearing time for replacement, I'm guessing you get plenty of rain in Wisconsin?.
Of course, the tire shop want to sell you new tires, but I don't think they are trying to get you to replace them unnecessarily.
Claud.
The rears are at 7/32 not 4/32.
I think the shop is offering sound advice. At 4/32 the rears are nearing time for replacement, I'm guessing you get plenty of rain in Wisconsin?.
Of course, the tire shop want to sell you new tires, but I don't think they are trying to get you to replace them unnecessarily.
Claud.
The rears are at 7/32 not 4/32.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Ok - follow what you like - I buy 4 or 5 tire sets - and rotate them often.
And if you rotate (no matter how often) you are going to put more worn tire from the front to the rear. It is simply impossible to avoid. I am not giving any recommendation. I just want to point out that the logic "better tires go to the rear" has a major flaw for FWD car.
Ok - follow what you like - I buy 4 or 5 tire sets - and rotate them often.
And if you rotate (no matter how often) you are going to put more worn tire from the front to the rear. It is simply impossible to avoid. I am not giving any recommendation. I just want to point out that the logic "better tires go to the rear" has a major flaw for FWD car.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Ok - thanks for the feedback ...
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I've always found a jittery rear is far more dangerous than a little "push" in the front. Folks who understand front wheel drive dynamics understand getting off the gas or brakes restores front wheel grip quite quickly. Not many race cars over the years have had oversteer built in except for a certain German make with the engine at the back. Dieter and the boys went to four wheel drive in a effort to control the throttle steer brougt about by the weight of the engine. It's why really fast rear engine Porsche products look like they have 55 gallon drums for rear tires.
A lot of this has to do with many current drivers having very little or no experience with RWD vehicles, just as many current drivers can't manage a stick.
Oversteer may actually be preferable for a driver who expects it, knows how to correct for it and knows to center the wheel after that.
Understeer offers no corrective options other than to back off and hope for the best.
Some road cars have entirely transparent oversteer built in that helps the driver through hard corners while never surprising nor frightening him.
The old W123, of which we've had two comes to mind.
Understeer is neither good nor bad. It's merely a built in chassis dynamic of any FWD, like the OP's wife's Toyota.
Your race car comparison is fallacious.
Cars are usually set up loose since that's the fast way around any track. Also, larger rears than fronts are hardly limited to Porsches as any visit to any track on any weekend would show you.
To the OP, the better tires do belong on the rear, if only because you don't want the wife challenged in a corner in the rain on her way to work one morning.
I'd personally forget rotation and just buy another set of four of these fairly inexpensive tires on Black Friday this year.
I've always found a jittery rear is far more dangerous than a little "push" in the front. Folks who understand front wheel drive dynamics understand getting off the gas or brakes restores front wheel grip quite quickly. Not many race cars over the years have had oversteer built in except for a certain German make with the engine at the back. Dieter and the boys went to four wheel drive in a effort to control the throttle steer brougt about by the weight of the engine. It's why really fast rear engine Porsche products look like they have 55 gallon drums for rear tires.
A lot of this has to do with many current drivers having very little or no experience with RWD vehicles, just as many current drivers can't manage a stick.
Oversteer may actually be preferable for a driver who expects it, knows how to correct for it and knows to center the wheel after that.
Understeer offers no corrective options other than to back off and hope for the best.
Some road cars have entirely transparent oversteer built in that helps the driver through hard corners while never surprising nor frightening him.
The old W123, of which we've had two comes to mind.
Understeer is neither good nor bad. It's merely a built in chassis dynamic of any FWD, like the OP's wife's Toyota.
Your race car comparison is fallacious.
Cars are usually set up loose since that's the fast way around any track. Also, larger rears than fronts are hardly limited to Porsches as any visit to any track on any weekend would show you.
To the OP, the better tires do belong on the rear, if only because you don't want the wife challenged in a corner in the rain on her way to work one morning.
I'd personally forget rotation and just buy another set of four of these fairly inexpensive tires on Black Friday this year.
You haven't truly lived until you get into a snap spin in a FWD car.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You haven't truly lived until you get into a snap spin in a FWD car.
Also, loose is NOT the fast way around any track. At Skip Barber school we were taught that the clean line is the best, we actually used the vehicle's stability control to tell us when we got loose which slowed us down!
You haven't truly lived until you get into a snap spin in a FWD car.
Also, loose is NOT the fast way around any track. At Skip Barber school we were taught that the clean line is the best, we actually used the vehicle's stability control to tell us when we got loose which slowed us down!
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You haven't truly lived until you get into a snap spin in a FWD car.
Also, loose is NOT the fast way around any track. At Skip Barber school we were taught that the clean line is the best, we actually used the vehicle's stability control to tell us when we got loose which slowed us down!
Getting a FWD into "snap spin" must be pretty difficult, since I've never managed it in any FWD and we've had a lot of them.
Next time you're at a track day, note that the guys who are really fast will often hang the tail. This is also a matter of how the car was set up. Understeer consumes power. Oversteer doesn't.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You haven't truly lived until you get into a snap spin in a FWD car.
Also, loose is NOT the fast way around any track. At Skip Barber school we were taught that the clean line is the best, we actually used the vehicle's stability control to tell us when we got loose which slowed us down!
Getting a FWD into "snap spin" must be pretty difficult, since I've never managed it in any FWD and we've had a lot of them.
Next time you're at a track day, note that the guys who are really fast will often hang the tail. This is also a matter of how the car was set up. Understeer consumes power. Oversteer doesn't.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Getting a FWD into "snap spin" must be pretty difficult, since I've never managed it in any FWD and we've had a lot of them.
Next time you're at a track day, note that the guys who are really fast will often hang the tail. This is also a matter of how the car was set up. Understeer consumes power. Oversteer doesn't.
I've done it, on an icy bridge deck when I wasn't expecting ice. 360° to the right then 360° to the left. Bent a rim -- I was lucky.
Getting a FWD into "snap spin" must be pretty difficult, since I've never managed it in any FWD and we've had a lot of them.
Next time you're at a track day, note that the guys who are really fast will often hang the tail. This is also a matter of how the car was set up. Understeer consumes power. Oversteer doesn't.
I've done it, on an icy bridge deck when I wasn't expecting ice. 360° to the right then 360° to the left. Bent a rim -- I was lucky.
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