Rod/Main/Cam Bearings - Any Quality Differences?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: qdeezie
Also, I don't know if I mentioned it earlier, but I read that if an HO firing order crankshaft is employed, the wiring order on the injectors can be changed to eliminate the need to change the ECM. It makes sense, but whether or not that is true, I don't know.


It's not necessary with the bank-fire ECM, since it doesn't fire each injector at a time, rather an entire bank at a time.

You can run EITHER firing order camshaft with your ECM and it won't care. The only change you need to make is how you put the wires on the distributor cap.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
Originally Posted By: qdeezie
Also, I don't know if I mentioned it earlier, but I read that if an HO firing order crankshaft is employed, the wiring order on the injectors can be changed to eliminate the need to change the ECM. It makes sense, but whether or not that is true, I don't know.


if you had a SFI engine that would be true. the problem with the bank firing wiring is that 4 cylinders worth of injector wiring are bundled at the plug on the firewall.

you can get around this with a soldering iron (there are instructions on the website as well) or a SFI kit will contain what they call and 'overlay harness' - which is what I use.


Yep, or rig in an SEFI harness from a Panther (what I've used in the past).

However, I'm not sure what the measurable advantages are to doing this swap? Having used both, I really couldn't see much in practical application.

 

[qdeezie]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


There ARE other "SD Friendly" roller grinds from manufacturers like Crower (I can dig up the part # if the OP is interested) that will work with what he has, but using a cam like that with stock heads/intake is simply a waste of money.


Can you dig that up for me? I'd really like to see it. If you have a list of SD friendly cams, I'd like to see all of them to be honest.

 

[qdeezie]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
You can run EITHER firing order camshaft with your ECM and it won't care. The only change you need to make is how you put the wires on the distributor cap.


So, if I go the Explorer cam route, all I need to do is change the firing order and that's it? No injector wires, ECM changes or any of that stuff? I'm asking just so I understand clearly and eliminate surprises when the moment of truth arrives if I decided to go this route.

The SD cam route is what I strongly prefer, but if I can do this upgrade and save money in the process, it's worth doing in my opinion.

 

[QuadDriver]

If you are going to stay speed density, and are not going to reprogram, Id stay close to stock as possible. A s.d. setup *might* see 10 more hp but thats like 6% over stock.

the fuel curve is tied too closely to rpm, throttle position and map. and if you try to alter the map readings, you mess up idle and steady state (cruise)

the advantages of going mass air and SEFI? do anything you want and the ECM will respond up to the limits of your 19lb injectors. the idle is rock solid and you get about 1 more, maybe 1.5 mpg. AT 80 cents a gallon when I got the truck, not so much a worry.
at 3.39 today - gravy.

FWIW, Im running a 1990 F150 XLT 4x4, 5.0 SFI w/cam, headers, borla, AOD, 3.55 with lim slip rears AND fronts. On the stand, if I ever get a few days free, is a 347 that reads like a motorsports catalog. (I originally built that engine for a 1990 F150XLT 2wd with a custom interior cap from cali, but, it had a e40d and I could not solve the pcm problem for a reasonable cost, so I sold that truck for a nice profit)

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: qdeezie
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


There ARE other "SD Friendly" roller grinds from manufacturers like Crower (I can dig up the part # if the OP is interested) that will work with what he has, but using a cam like that with stock heads/intake is simply a waste of money.


Can you dig that up for me? I'd really like to see it. If you have a list of SD friendly cams, I'd like to see all of them to be honest.


The cam that is regarded to work the best with a stock SD system is the Crower 15511. There are others, but that will require some digging, LOL!

It has been used in MANY a Mustang with the stock SD ECM and no issues.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
If you are going to stay speed density, and are not going to reprogram, Id stay close to stock as possible. A s.d. setup *might* see 10 more hp but thats like 6% over stock.

the fuel curve is tied too closely to rpm, throttle position and map. and if you try to alter the map readings, you mess up idle and steady state (cruise)

the advantages of going mass air and SEFI? do anything you want and the ECM will respond up to the limits of your 19lb injectors. the idle is rock solid and you get about 1 more, maybe 1.5 mpg. AT 80 cents a gallon when I got the truck, not so much a worry.
at 3.39 today - gravy.

FWIW, Im running a 1990 F150 XLT 4x4, 5.0 SFI w/cam, headers, borla, AOD, 3.55 with lim slip rears AND fronts. On the stand, if I ever get a few days free, is a 347 that reads like a motorsports catalog. (I originally built that engine for a 1990 F150XLT 2wd with a custom interior cap from cali, but, it had a e40d and I could not solve the pcm problem for a reasonable cost, so I sold that truck for a nice profit)


I agree with this in general.

If one is to retain SD, they need to retain SD-friendly components, and that limits cam choice. However, as far as the 302HO went stock, the SD cars were generally faster than the MAF cars stock-for-stock. Take that FWIW.

I converted my '87 GT T-Top to MAF. It didn't run any better than it did when it was SD. However, this did allow me to follow through with the heads/cam/intake swap I had planned for it, and still have a driveable car afterwards

That engine is still in my garage, headed for its 3rd home. It has a set of heavily worked GT40 irons done by Cobra Racing in Toronto, a Camshaft Innovations custom grind on a 114LSA .548/.552 and 229/240 @ .050 (roughly), Cobra 1.7's, K-Motion K800 springs, and the shortblock is completely stock from the '87 car with 338,000Km on it, LOL!

Last time it was functional, it had the TFS #1 cam in it, no tune, and made ~325HP.

The car that it is going in is a project sorta similar to the truck in this thread. It's an '89 Town Car that I decided to upgrade to an HO setup.

A buddy of mine bought a fresh longblock from a wrecked Mustang, and I put the heads and cam, along with a set of 1.7's on the the stock shortblock in the car. This was with a Lightning EGR spacer and 65mm throttle body on an Explorer (GT40-style) intake. This was to be run with a Mark VII ECM.

However, the "stock" cam, ended up being an alphabet cam, and of course this wouldn't work properly with SD. I converted the car to MAF with an A9P ECM from an AOD-equipped Mustang, and then it was fine.

The car has full duals, 3G alt, Mark VIII E-fan and I have a converter and shift kit for the AOD here.

It went 16.2 @ ~90Mph IIRC (the ET is right, not sure on the MPH) with the stock gears, converter and AOD shift points with the current engine, which has almost 350,000Km on it. I expect it to be much quicker with the other engine.

The 1990 sounds like a nice truck, got any pics?

 

[SteveSRT8]

The age old debate about SD vs. MAF. That could start it's own discussion!

 

[partspro]

'Couldn't get it to run right with the 1-5 firing order'. Strange, I bought a cam and lifters from John Kaase about 18 years ago. It was for my 351w but the Kaase cam had the original 302 grind. On Kaase's advice I just changed the firing order and the 351 ran like a charm. While I understand the bearing stress issue, on a 351W the mains are so big, that at really high rpms they throw the oil off. Hence the smaller main sizes on the cleveland, designed for higher rpm from the get go.

I have used both 302 and 351 grind cams and never had an issue just change the firing order. Note that none of these were fuel injected motors.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: partspro
'Couldn't get it to run right with the 1-5 firing order'. Strange, I bought a cam and lifters from John Kaase about 18 years ago. It was for my 351w but the Kaase cam had the original 302 grind. On Kaase's advice I just changed the firing order and the 351 ran like a charm. While I understand the bearing stress issue, on a 351W the mains are so big, that at really high rpms they throw the oil off. Hence the smaller main sizes on the cleveland, designed for higher rpm from the get go.

I have used both 302 and 351 grind cams and never had an issue just change the firing order. Note that none of these were fuel injected motors.


Yup, this has been my experience too. As long as you swap the wires on the distributor to go with the firing order on the cam you put in, you'll be fine.

 

[qdeezie]

Pardon my ignorance, but I've been surfing the web and reading about aluminum bearings and trimetal bearings and I'll be going with trimetal bearings, but I see that the aluminum bearings are widely available for the 302.

Exactly what application would aluminum bearings have some sort of benefit?

For me and how I drive my truck at times, I'd be a bit concerned about how it would hold up as soon as I'd hook up to tow something.

 

[qdeezie]

In response to my own question, I found an article that was helpful. I'm still going with trimetal, though.

Engine Bearings Article

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: qdeezie
Pardon my ignorance, but I've been surfing the web and reading about aluminum bearings and trimetal bearings and I'll be going with trimetal bearings, but I see that the aluminum bearings are widely available for the 302.

Exactly what application would aluminum bearings have some sort of benefit?

For me and how I drive my truck at times, I'd be a bit concerned about how it would hold up as soon as I'd hook up to tow something.


The Modular engines have aluminum bearings (which is why it is hilarious when guys remark about the copper in UOA's on the Modulars being bearing material.... with the exception of the GT500 of course).

BUT

The Modular also has a bottom-end that is built like a brick *you know what* with deep skirts, multi-bolt and pinned main caps....etc. The bottom-end on the Modular doesn't move.

That's not the case for the Windsor.

I've never actually heard of anybody using aluminum bearings in a Windsor. They came from the factory with Clevite 77's, and that's what most people put back in them. Considering how long they last, I'd just go with those and not think twice about doing something "different" in this department.

 

[QuadDriver]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
[The 1990 sounds like a nice truck, got any pics?


I have a project page for it and another 81 I did on the FTE website - search out 'old blue' and 'new blue'

the 347 was slated for old blue, but she got cancer and I found new blue from down south with wierd options*, so I took the good things from old, took apart new, and bolted it all together. in the meantime the white 90 2wd came up from a friend who LIVED IN IT on venice beach while he was contracting for lockheed. He got a job with nasa and sold the truck cheap. I wanted it because 16 years old it still had the paper stickers on the frame. but I could not solve the PCM issue so I nearly doubled my money in pa on a rust free truck to an old guy hunter/fisher who wanted to live in the cap.

As of this summer when I sold the 81, I am out of the truck restoration biz. 6 was enuf. Now I am moving onto something larger to restore. Class C rvs.



* = 1990 xlt with trailer tow, 6250GVWR, lim slip both ends, no carpet and single tank? WTH?

 

[OVERKILL]

Will do! I've been a member over there for years and years, but haven't posted much, or recently.

I post more on here, and the local Mustang board.

What parts are in the 347? Stock block, "R" block? or?

We've had a lot of good talk about strokers on SBFTech, though it isn't a busy forum since its focus is pretty much limited to "the facts only". Very knowledgeable group of guys there though!

 

[QuadDriver]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Will do! I've been a member over there for years and years, but haven't posted much, or recently.

I post more on here, and the local Mustang board.

What parts are in the 347? Stock block, "R" block? or?

We've had a lot of good talk about strokers on SBFTech, though it isn't a busy forum since its focus is pretty much limited to "the facts only". Very knowledgeable group of guys there though!

XXX block, TMD nodular crank, Eagle H beam rods, SRP pistons with oil ring rail support, clevite cams, FM 'racing' bearings (fully filleted crank), FMS double roller, fluidamper 28oz balancer, TMD 28oz flexplate, E303 cam, FMS roller lifters, GT40P heads from FMS - not an exploder, FMS truck valve covers, melling hv pump, felpro seals everywhere, dual direction front cover, P51 headers, roller rockers, FMS pushrods, fms dist gear, SS visible bolt set, clearanced, blueprinted and balanced by Hemphill racing

It literally took me years to get my own engine assembled. now to find the time to actually do the swapout...

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Bearings do NOT dry out every day for startup.
Even after a year or more, I have always seen oil on the bearings on a teardown.
If they touch, they are destroyed. They are soft.


I understand your point, most often some oil remains in the bearing area. However, they most certainly do touch. The above picture is just one example. You must know that the oil does not separate the journal and bearing when static. They touch and upon startup, slide against each other.

However, as a mechanic, I can tell you horror stories of dry startups on stored aviation engines. That once were fully in use. That is one reason, standby emergency generators are regularly run. And that pre-oiling is a requirement for stored aviation engines.

Once again, oil provides no barrier to the weight of a static crankshaft against a bearing. They touch and they do so upon startup. It's the load applied, the bearing design and residual oil that prevents disaster.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Will do! I've been a member over there for years and years, but haven't posted much, or recently.

I post more on here, and the local Mustang board.

What parts are in the 347? Stock block, "R" block? or?

We've had a lot of good talk about strokers on SBFTech, though it isn't a busy forum since its focus is pretty much limited to "the facts only". Very knowledgeable group of guys there though!

XXX block, TMD nodular crank, Eagle H beam rods, SRP pistons with oil ring rail support, clevite cams, FM 'racing' bearings (fully filleted crank), FMS double roller, fluidamper 28oz balancer, TMD 28oz flexplate, E303 cam, FMS roller lifters, GT40P heads from FMS - not an exploder, FMS truck valve covers, melling hv pump, felpro seals everywhere, dual direction front cover, P51 headers, roller rockers, FMS pushrods, fms dist gear, SS visible bolt set, clearanced, blueprinted and balanced by Hemphill racing

It literally took me years to get my own engine assembled. now to find the time to actually do the swapout...


Sounds like a nice build! I have the same timing set if it is the one with the 8-way keyway

Only things I'd change would be the HV pump and the E-cam. I have the E in the Lincoln, and the TFS #1 I had in the other engine, prior to my custom grind was a lot better.

Hope you get to use it soon! All that engine going to waste

 

[QuadDriver]

thats the thing about non-revenue work. restoring trucks sells em - revenue, someone drives in, revenue. free time = boating or camping. or fishing, hunting, watching steelers games, riding atvs....

its easy for things to slide. when I look at the receipts for WHEN I actually bought the parts, vs when I bolted them on....

 

[OVERKILL]

Tell me about it! LOL! I finally started parting out my project (the Capri) because the likelihood of it ever running again.... well, wasn't good. I bought the M5, and I have too many vehicles.

So, I figured that engine will have a good home in the Townie, which I have in storage. And this frees up my garage. That car has been a "project" for about 5 years now!!!