Road Force Balance. How much is too much?

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Anthony

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I recently got a set of OEM 20 inch Wheels for my truck. Mine came with 18's.
I had them wrapped in Michelin LTX M/S 2 Tires in the OEM 275/60/20 size.

I paid extra for Kauffman to Road Force Balance them. The 2 back tires had over 20 lbs of RD force each. Front were 8 lbs, and 15 I think. That is deemed acceptable by many, but the reason I pay the Michelin Premium is to get numbers less than 10 lbs.

Kauffamn refunded me the extra that I paid for the Road Force.

I went to Butler Tire this morning, and got them to Road Force, and index the tires.

LF 9 lbs
RF 12 lbs
LR 13 lbs
RR 16 lbs.

Better numbers, but not under 10. Am I crazy in wanting lower numbers? The truck does ride better, but there is still some shimmy. I don't expect it to ride like an LS460, but it can be better. I used to have a dealership connection who I always let re balance my new sets of tires since no chain place can seem to get it right. My friend at this dealer always got them to less than 10 lbs without much effort. It's not easy these days to squeeze me in so I gave Butler a try.

What do y'all think? Anyone else this anal about a good tire balance?

The OEM Goodyear SRA's rode better.
 
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Find someone who knows how to read the machine properly and match mount the tires, they didn't do it right or you have a bad tire or wheel.
 
Sounds like you might be asking a lot, since the normal limit is like 26 lbs. Plus that is a very heavy wheel, and tire. I don't even have a road force balancer, and do not have vibration issues,and do not even know what the road force is. I just concentrate on getting the balance numbers the best I can. I sure would like to have one of those machines though.
 
Originally Posted By: Traction
Sounds like you might be asking a lot, since the normal limit is like 26 lbs. Plus that is a very heavy wheel, and tire. I don't even have a road force balancer, and do not have vibration issues,and do not even know what the road force is. I just concentrate on getting the balance numbers the best I can. I sure would like to have one of those machines though.


Weight is probably around 75 lbs per wheel tire combo. I am defintily asking a lot. They charged me $190. I do have high Expectations from Michelin LTX too.
 
Not enough info. What speeds, and where do you feel the vibration coming from? How many miles on the vehicle? A weak shock with a heavier wheel can be an issue too. I assume the tire pressure is right on? I wouldn't worry so much about the road force numbers. The new heavier, shorter sidewall tire/wheel combo is not going to ride as smooth as a smaller set-up. That is why I am sticking with 18's on my truck. Lighter, smoother, faster, but not as good on turning response maybe, but it is a truck. I run 17 in winter tires, and that is smoother yet. The roller on the road force balancer is like 14 inches in diameter, but the real world diameter of the earth is like 7600 miles. Forget about trying to feel a tire on concrete roads, you need to check for vibrations on smooth blacktop.
 
The guy across the street had a 46 Ford 5 ton dump truck. Its front tires were 6.50 20 BFG Cavaliers, bald as eggs but with no cord showing The current usage of these tall wheels with next to no side wall tires totally mystifies me. Its the dumbest thing since fins. The Cavaliers had about a 80 profile
grin2.gif
 
9lb and 12lb on the front of a Titan is causing steering wheel shimmy? From my perspective, those are low numbers. Is the Titan really that sensitive to road force variation?

How much radial runout do your 20" wheels have?
 
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It seems to me that giant tires would need more because of their mass which is more concentrated in a smaller aspect ratio.
 
Originally Posted By: Traction
Not enough info. What speeds, and where do you feel the vibration coming from? How many miles on the vehicle? A weak shock with a heavier wheel can be an issue too. I assume the tire pressure is right on? I wouldn't worry so much about the road force numbers. The new heavier, shorter sidewall tire/wheel combo is not going to ride as smooth as a smaller set-up. That is why I am sticking with 18's on my truck. Lighter, smoother, faster, but not as good on turning response maybe, but it is a truck. I run 17 in winter tires, and that is smoother yet. The roller on the road force balancer is like 14 inches in diameter, but the real world diameter of the earth is like 7600 miles. Forget about trying to feel a tire on concrete roads, you need to check for vibrations on smooth blacktop.


The vibes are felt a little over 70. It's not extreme, but it's there. I know a tire with a smaller sidewall will generally have a stiffer ride. I can tell the difference between bumps in the rd, and balance being out of wack. The truck has less than 17,000 miles on it. Truck is in perfect condition. I didn't do anything extreme to the truck. This exact wheel, and Tire size come on this same truck from the factory. A 275/60/20 tire has a good bit of sidewall. Not low profile by any means. Tire pressure is at 36 psi as the Door Jam says.

I had a loaner Titan sometime ago with the factory 20's that rode just like mine did with the 18's
The Road Force numbers that they gave me could be incorrect for all I know, but there is definitely room for improvement.
 
Anthony,

You are being unrealistic. Under 10# is luxury car level. Good numbers for a pickup truck is under 20#.

Occurs over 70 mph? That's a bit outside the normal range, which makes me think it might not be tires and wheels.

OEM wheels? If I remember correctly, those wheels are put on at the distribution center and not at the assembly plant. So the wheels might not be as good as a normal OEM wheel. Plus, it might be the fit onto the hub - and every time the wheel is fitted, it will be different.

But if you want to pursue this further, I suggest you get someone to index the tire to the wheel, but start with a bare wheel. Plus, there can be considerable non-concentricity in the mounting process and very few people would do this correctly. Usually, what they do is good enough, but you are asking for near perfection. This has to be done very carefully - and that requires someone who really, really knows what they are doing.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Anthony,

You are being unrealistic. Under 10# is luxury car level. Good numbers for a pickup truck is under 20#.

Occurs over 70 mph? That's a bit outside the normal range, which makes me think it might not be tires and wheels.

OEM wheels? If I remember correctly, those wheels are put on at the distribution center and not at the assembly plant. So the wheels might not be as good as a normal OEM wheel. Plus, it might be the fit onto the hub - and every time the wheel is fitted, it will be different.

But if you want to pursue this further, I suggest you get someone to index the tire to the wheel, but start with a bare wheel. Plus, there can be considerable non-concentricity in the mounting process and very few people would do this correctly. Usually, what they do is good enough, but you are asking for near perfection. This has to be done very carefully - and that requires someone who really, really knows what they are doing.



You don't remember correctly. These are 100% STOCK wheels installed at the assembly plant. It's not a luxury car, but it's not some base model cheap pickup either.

Yes My standards are somewhat high. Again this is why I purchased a top of the line tire as well as using Butler Tire. They mostly deal with nothing but High End vehicles. For $190 what kind of results would you expect? They indexed the tires. At least they said they did. They definitely charged me for it.

It's strange. I went out tonight. Drove about 25 miles to my destination. The vibs were felt the most in the 65-70mph Range. The farther from 70mph I got the less the vibs were felt.

On the way home it seemed to be even less noticeable in that 65-70mph window.

I've been through this twice with pickups I've had in the past, but I had someone I would immediately take it to for Road Forcing after having tires put on. The option of using that person isn't as available as it once was, but yes I was spoiled with the results he was able to achieve.
 
Not knowing which end of the truck you are feeling the vibration, you could swap front to rear a pair at a time, and see if you notice a change. Aside from the road force numbers, I would be more curious about the actual balance numbers in ounces. If a balancer is set up to round up using the course mode instead of fine, it is very likely for a tire to end up over a 1/2 ounce out of balance even though the machine displays zero. I always use fine mode, and can easily get below 1/8 ounce of static imbalance. It is difficult to explain, but if the tire is 1/4oz off on the inside, and outside 180 degrees apart you have zero static (hop) balance which is good, but if it is off 1/4oz inside/outside, and the 2 points are directly across from each other, then the static (hop) is 1/2oz off, which is not so good. In either case the machine will show all zeros. No road force balancer required if balanced correctly. Good luck finding someone to figure out your issue. The person running the balancer is more important than the machine.
 
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Did Butler Tire do something like this?

"………...Put a set of new Hankooks on my 94R for winter use and took them to a very old school tire shop (you know, the ones with garage pinups on the wall and the technicians all still smoke). They advertised Hunter Roadforce and thus my reason for choosing them.

First thing they did was remove the old tires and then mounted the bare wheels on the machine to check for high/low spots in the wheel (the valve stem hole is "supposed" to be drilled at the low spot but it doesn't always happen. The Chaparrals wheels were surprisingly very much "round" and balanced with some minor differences. The tech marked on the back the high and low spots and the degree of difference.

He then mounted all four tires and put them on the machine and found the one most out of round. He then dismounted it, mated it to the wheel with the most difference. Then he used the giant calipers on the machine to again measure rotational differences which were noted in the printout.

Then, before any balancing, asked me to go drive the car for twenty miles to fully seat the tires and allow for any cord expansion/contraction to take place. Then he put each wheel on the machine to balance it. He turned the sensitivity way up because they were going on a Miata. Mounted them all on the car and then asked me to come back after 200-300 miles of driving so that they could double check everything and make any necessary adjustments.

Bottom line - smoothest ride at all speeds I've ever experienced (and remember, this is an R package car)

Went back after 260 miles of driving and they once again put all four tires on the machine and measured the roundness, made a couple of very minor adjustments on two of them (which involves breaking the bead and slightly rotating the tire to get it perfect) and rebalanced all four of them (only the two that were adjusted needed minor weight changes).

They apologized for having to charge $125 (this included mounting the new tires and new valve stems) but they had four hours into the service (and they did, was there for every minute of it).

He said that the vast majority of shops skip the 20 mile "seating" drive and thus often get unsatisfactory results. They won't even mount and balance loose tires because they want the car there to do the seating drive. I don't know how much of a difference it made as the tires weren't actually balanced during that drive so there was some shimmy.

On top of all this, it's a lifetime balance and they said feel free to come back every six months to check if I wanted. ……………."

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=486109
 
Originally Posted By: Traction
Not knowing which end of the truck you are feeling the vibration, you could swap front to rear a pair at a time, and see if you notice a change. Aside from the road force numbers, I would be more curious about the actual balance numbers in ounces. If a balancer is set up to round up using the course mode instead of fine, it is very likely for a tire to end up over a 1/2 ounce out of balance even though the machine displays zero. I always use fine mode, and can easily get below 1/8 ounce of static imbalance. It is difficult to explain, but if the tire is 1/4oz off on the inside, and outside 180 degrees apart you have zero static (hop) balance which is good, but if it is off 1/4oz inside/outside, and the 2 points are directly across from each other, then the static (hop) is 1/2oz off, which is not so good. In either case the machine will show all zeros. No road force balancer required if balanced correctly. Good luck finding someone to figure out your issue. The person running the balancer is more important than the machine.


I was feeling it in the seat, and steering wheel. It did improve after driving some more last night.
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Did Butler Tire do something like this?

"………...Put a set of new Hankooks on my 94R for winter use and took them to a very old school tire shop (you know, the ones with garage pinups on the wall and the technicians all still smoke). They advertised Hunter Roadforce and thus my reason for choosing them.

First thing they did was remove the old tires and then mounted the bare wheels on the machine to check for high/low spots in the wheel (the valve stem hole is "supposed" to be drilled at the low spot but it doesn't always happen. The Chaparrals wheels were surprisingly very much "round" and balanced with some minor differences. The tech marked on the back the high and low spots and the degree of difference.

He then mounted all four tires and put them on the machine and found the one most out of round. He then dismounted it, mated it to the wheel with the most difference. Then he used the giant calipers on the machine to again measure rotational differences which were noted in the printout.

Then, before any balancing, asked me to go drive the car for twenty miles to fully seat the tires and allow for any cord expansion/contraction to take place. Then he put each wheel on the machine to balance it. He turned the sensitivity way up because they were going on a Miata. Mounted them all on the car and then asked me to come back after 200-300 miles of driving so that they could double check everything and make any necessary adjustments.

Bottom line - smoothest ride at all speeds I've ever experienced (and remember, this is an R package car)

Went back after 260 miles of driving and they once again put all four tires on the machine and measured the roundness, made a couple of very minor adjustments on two of them (which involves breaking the bead and slightly rotating the tire to get it perfect) and rebalanced all four of them (only the two that were adjusted needed minor weight changes).

They apologized for having to charge $125 (this included mounting the new tires and new valve stems) but they had four hours into the service (and they did, was there for every minute of it).

He said that the vast majority of shops skip the 20 mile "seating" drive and thus often get unsatisfactory results. They won't even mount and balance loose tires because they want the car there to do the seating drive. I don't know how much of a difference it made as the tires weren't actually balanced during that drive so there was some shimmy.

On top of all this, it's a lifetime balance and they said feel free to come back every six months to check if I wanted. ……………."

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=486109



Not even close. They told me they broke them down etc, but I don't know if they checked the rim first. I'm guessing they left the tire mounted, and checked, and then deflated, and re positioned the tire based on what the machine told them.
 
What is the source of the wheels (Are they brand new or used take offs?)

IMO those road force numbers are pretty good particularly on a 20" truck tire, maybe the 16lbs one could use some work but the ones on my Prius have that much and it does not vibrate.

For $190.00 I'd take it back and say it is vibrating and see what they say, but those road force numbers should not be vibrating IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
What is the source of the wheels (Are they brand new or used take offs?)

IMO those road force numbers are pretty good particularly on a 20" truck tire, maybe the 16lbs one could use some work but the ones on my Prius have that much and it does not vibrate.

For $190.00 I'd take it back and say it is vibrating and see what they say, but those road force numbers should not be vibrating IMO.


They were used take offs, but I know the guy they came from. No Off Road use or wrecks etc. For the price I paid I would hope Butler would tell me if the wheels were out of wack.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I've road forced a number of sets of tires on my vehicles before. 16# being the highest number is pretty good in my experience. That's about the highest I like to see.

Relevant thread:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3592330/3


Looks like you went through a lot of what I'm going through. Definitely don't have time to keep going back to the Tire place, but as mentioned I bought a Premium Tire, and paid a balance Premium to avoid exactly this. It never fails. That's exactly what they told me. It's in spec BLAH BLAH. The last time I drove the truck was 2 days ago, and it seemed to improve with some miles.

I won't drive it again until this wknd, and I'm hoping it at least stays the same as it did Saturday night. If so I won't bother going back.
 
Do you still have the previous tires? No vibe until putting the new ones on? Can you swap to the old ones just to confirm? Wouldn't be the first time a coincidence happened.
 
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