Have we ever had a UOA with TAN this high? I know esters have a different set of rules re: TAN and TBN, but I came to the conclusion that TAN of 6 was my upper limit of what was acceptable based on some expert advice. 8.5, isn't that pretty darn acidic?
RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30 - 7,510 miles -'06 Camry 2AZ-FE
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I shy away from stating things not based on at least some facts and/or direct experience but I thought I would chime in here on the use of “feelings” when it comes to choosing an oil.
I used to be a “Doubting Thomas” and as with many in the science and engineering fields did not believe in anything unless I saw it first. The saying is “I will believe it when I see it.” Then I read Wayne Dyer’s Book: You'll See It When You Believe It. It changed my way of thinking.
Physicians are people of facts for the most part. But we cannot go only on facts. To be a really good diagnostician you have to have a feel for the problem, go with hunches and think outside the given facts at hand. As such it is unlikely that we will be replaced by computers.
Going back to cars - I inspect parts, study oil analysis results, converse with technical people in many automotive fields. With facts in hand I make decisions about oil use. At the same time I listen to my wife’s comments about how she thinks the engine is running with the new oil in the sump. I use “seat of the pants” and “feel” of the motor running, it’s sounds and then I look back at the facts. Is the oil temperature running a few degrees cooler, am I getting more MPG, is it easier to burn rubber? Then add in more facts: what did the UOA show, was there debris in the oil filter. What do the value lobes look like today, is it clean in there? What is the pattern of the oil on the paper test? Is there a fuel odor?
So maybe the best answer for your particular application is to review facts, maybe ask others about their opinions on the matter and go with your feelings in the end. They can often be trusted.
aehaas
I used to be a “Doubting Thomas” and as with many in the science and engineering fields did not believe in anything unless I saw it first. The saying is “I will believe it when I see it.” Then I read Wayne Dyer’s Book: You'll See It When You Believe It. It changed my way of thinking.
Physicians are people of facts for the most part. But we cannot go only on facts. To be a really good diagnostician you have to have a feel for the problem, go with hunches and think outside the given facts at hand. As such it is unlikely that we will be replaced by computers.
Going back to cars - I inspect parts, study oil analysis results, converse with technical people in many automotive fields. With facts in hand I make decisions about oil use. At the same time I listen to my wife’s comments about how she thinks the engine is running with the new oil in the sump. I use “seat of the pants” and “feel” of the motor running, it’s sounds and then I look back at the facts. Is the oil temperature running a few degrees cooler, am I getting more MPG, is it easier to burn rubber? Then add in more facts: what did the UOA show, was there debris in the oil filter. What do the value lobes look like today, is it clean in there? What is the pattern of the oil on the paper test? Is there a fuel odor?
So maybe the best answer for your particular application is to review facts, maybe ask others about their opinions on the matter and go with your feelings in the end. They can often be trusted.
aehaas
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Been gone for 6 months, but it's time for another oil change, so I figured I'd check in with the 'perts (experts)
I'll have to check the odometer, but I must have between 3,000 and 4,000 miles on my second fill of RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30. I won't be getting a UOA this time--can't afford it--unless someone wants to pick up the tab? ;-)
I'll be putting in Amsoil SSO sometime in the next few days. This will be my first fill of Amsoil ever. I'll get a Blackstone UOA on the second Amsoil fill. Will probably drive between 5,000 and 7,500 miles with each fill of SSO. Wow, that stuff got here fast. Ordered on Monday. Got here by UPS on Wednesday, from the Wichita warehouse. Only $9.xx for 17 pounds of shipping (2 gallons and a quart), but had to pay another $5.xx for sales tax. Don't know why Amsoil dinged me for the sales tax since this was an interstate internet sale.
I've said it many times, and I will KEEP saying it - this is such an insane waste of good oil!!!
5-7,500 mile OCI's on $10/quart Amsoil, when it has been proven that this can be done COMFORTABLY on $2-4 conventional!
So, so let me get this straight - you can't afford a UOA on your fill of RLI, but you CAN afford about $100 worth of Amsoil, that you will run to about 1/2 of it's capabability!!!
Oh, I love the lunacy that has taken over this site!!!
Been gone for 6 months, but it's time for another oil change, so I figured I'd check in with the 'perts (experts)
I'll have to check the odometer, but I must have between 3,000 and 4,000 miles on my second fill of RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30. I won't be getting a UOA this time--can't afford it--unless someone wants to pick up the tab? ;-)
I'll be putting in Amsoil SSO sometime in the next few days. This will be my first fill of Amsoil ever. I'll get a Blackstone UOA on the second Amsoil fill. Will probably drive between 5,000 and 7,500 miles with each fill of SSO. Wow, that stuff got here fast. Ordered on Monday. Got here by UPS on Wednesday, from the Wichita warehouse. Only $9.xx for 17 pounds of shipping (2 gallons and a quart), but had to pay another $5.xx for sales tax. Don't know why Amsoil dinged me for the sales tax since this was an interstate internet sale.
I've said it many times, and I will KEEP saying it - this is such an insane waste of good oil!!!
5-7,500 mile OCI's on $10/quart Amsoil, when it has been proven that this can be done COMFORTABLY on $2-4 conventional!
So, so let me get this straight - you can't afford a UOA on your fill of RLI, but you CAN afford about $100 worth of Amsoil, that you will run to about 1/2 of it's capabability!!!
Oh, I love the lunacy that has taken over this site!!!
Sorry to have posted and ran. I didn't mean to leave you fellas with a cliff-hanger. But when I last posted over 2 months ago, I had only about 2,600 miles on the second RLI fill, so it wasn't the 3,000 to 4,000 I had thought (I should have checked the odometer before I had posted). Well, now 2.5 months later, I've accumulated a total of 3,460 miles on the RLI Bio-Syn fill, so I changed the oil today, and added Amsoil SSO 0w-30 (first time I've used Amsoil).
Don't worry, I took a sample of the used Bio-Syn 0w-30, and will send it to Blackstone Labs. (I suppose I can pay for it myself, since some folks here seem very interested in the results.)
This second fill of Bio-Syn went about the same length of time as the first fill (9 months), but it went a much shorter distance, only 3,460 miles compared to the first fill's 7,510 miles. So at least the length of time is controlled for.
So far after one day of driving with the Amsoil SSO, I like it a lot. The engine is very quiet like with the RLI. And the car runs nice and smoothly.
Don't worry, I took a sample of the used Bio-Syn 0w-30, and will send it to Blackstone Labs. (I suppose I can pay for it myself, since some folks here seem very interested in the results.)
This second fill of Bio-Syn went about the same length of time as the first fill (9 months), but it went a much shorter distance, only 3,460 miles compared to the first fill's 7,510 miles. So at least the length of time is controlled for.
So far after one day of driving with the Amsoil SSO, I like it a lot. The engine is very quiet like with the RLI. And the car runs nice and smoothly.
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Don't worry, I took a sample of the used Bio-Syn 0w-30, and will send it to Blackstone Labs.
Thanks very much for doing this. If your second run of this same oil doesn't show significant improvement in wear #s as what should be the case for a high ester oil then I don't see much reason for using RLI beyond environmental reasons or for the 5W40 grade for its use in some DI/Turbo engines.
Don't worry, I took a sample of the used Bio-Syn 0w-30, and will send it to Blackstone Labs.
Thanks very much for doing this. If your second run of this same oil doesn't show significant improvement in wear #s as what should be the case for a high ester oil then I don't see much reason for using RLI beyond environmental reasons or for the 5W40 grade for its use in some DI/Turbo engines.
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
dOOdfOOd, I appreciate Pablo's explanation and your support of his explanation. Pablo may be right. As a novice, I gotta ask what oils used lead as an Anti-Wear agent? As 21Rouge noted, my previous oils were PP, M1, and Valvoline dino. Do any of those oils use lead as an AW agent?
I may well be wrong on this but the only brand I've heard of that uses lead as part of its additive package are the NEO products. I've only seen NEO mentioned here occasionally, and have visited their website occasionally, so I don't know much about them. There may well be others, and if so, I'd welcome someone else to enlighten us.
dOOdfOOd, I appreciate Pablo's explanation and your support of his explanation. Pablo may be right. As a novice, I gotta ask what oils used lead as an Anti-Wear agent? As 21Rouge noted, my previous oils were PP, M1, and Valvoline dino. Do any of those oils use lead as an AW agent?
I may well be wrong on this but the only brand I've heard of that uses lead as part of its additive package are the NEO products. I've only seen NEO mentioned here occasionally, and have visited their website occasionally, so I don't know much about them. There may well be others, and if so, I'd welcome someone else to enlighten us.
I run two boutique oils in my engine and followed each with UOA.
At no time, did the UOAs of RLI 0W-20 or 0W-30 show excessive led in the results.
My car is an Acura TL, but I doubt that its engine's bearings are manufactured from different alloys than Toyota's.
I do not wish to hijack the thread but, if you interested, see post by Rogsoil dated
5.23.10.
You might find a comparison between Amsoil, RLI, and conventional oil an interesting exercise.
just a thought
rogsoil
At no time, did the UOAs of RLI 0W-20 or 0W-30 show excessive led in the results.
My car is an Acura TL, but I doubt that its engine's bearings are manufactured from different alloys than Toyota's.
I do not wish to hijack the thread but, if you interested, see post by Rogsoil dated
5.23.10.
You might find a comparison between Amsoil, RLI, and conventional oil an interesting exercise.
just a thought
rogsoil
I'm sorry but, on second thought, I really can't afford to spend another $50 to get a UOA of the second fill of RLI Bio-Syn ($23 + $10 T.A.N. + $10 T.B.N.), plus $5 for shipping in a square cardboard box, since the Post Office delays delivery of Blackstone's round containers by a week or more.
I won't be using the Bio-Syn again because I need an oil that can go 9 months and 7,500 miles without scaring the T.A.N. out of me.
I paid for a UOA of the Pennzoil Platinum, and the T-IV transmission fluid, and my first fill of RLI Bio-Syn and will definitely get a UOA of the Amsoil that I'm using now, but if you really want to see a UOA of the second fill of Bio-Syn, I'm going to have to humbly extend my hand.
The RLI oil was exceptionally quiet and felt really good in the engine, but it may not be cut out for 9-month, 7,500-mile intervals, which is what I need because I don't like changing oil more frequently than every 9 months.
My first 6 oil changes were fun, but now it's beginning to be a chore for me.
21Rouge has rescinded his offer to pay for the Bio-Syn UOA, so I guess this second fill of Bio-Syn still needs a patron. (21Rouge ran out of his pre-paid Blackstone samples.)
If you're interested, the oil sample is sitting on my shelf in a Blackstone Labs container all set to be mailed. (I changed the oil 6 days ago from Bio-Syn to Amsoil.)
Shipping in a square cardboard box gets the sample to Blackstone in 2 days, and the results are emailed to me the same day that Blackstone receives the sample.
If you're interested but don't have any pre-paid Blackstone samples, you can simply use Ebay's payment service known as PayPal at www.PayPal.com to send the $48 to my email address. With PayPal, payments are sent instantly to anyone with an email address. And I'll ship the sample to Blackstone the same day.
Anyway, I'll hold onto the sample for a couple weeks, then just dump it (or actually I'll take it to Walmart for used oil recycling to be kind to the Earth).
I won't be using the Bio-Syn again because I need an oil that can go 9 months and 7,500 miles without scaring the T.A.N. out of me.
I paid for a UOA of the Pennzoil Platinum, and the T-IV transmission fluid, and my first fill of RLI Bio-Syn and will definitely get a UOA of the Amsoil that I'm using now, but if you really want to see a UOA of the second fill of Bio-Syn, I'm going to have to humbly extend my hand.
The RLI oil was exceptionally quiet and felt really good in the engine, but it may not be cut out for 9-month, 7,500-mile intervals, which is what I need because I don't like changing oil more frequently than every 9 months.
My first 6 oil changes were fun, but now it's beginning to be a chore for me.
21Rouge has rescinded his offer to pay for the Bio-Syn UOA, so I guess this second fill of Bio-Syn still needs a patron. (21Rouge ran out of his pre-paid Blackstone samples.)
If you're interested, the oil sample is sitting on my shelf in a Blackstone Labs container all set to be mailed. (I changed the oil 6 days ago from Bio-Syn to Amsoil.)
Shipping in a square cardboard box gets the sample to Blackstone in 2 days, and the results are emailed to me the same day that Blackstone receives the sample.
If you're interested but don't have any pre-paid Blackstone samples, you can simply use Ebay's payment service known as PayPal at www.PayPal.com to send the $48 to my email address. With PayPal, payments are sent instantly to anyone with an email address. And I'll ship the sample to Blackstone the same day.
Anyway, I'll hold onto the sample for a couple weeks, then just dump it (or actually I'll take it to Walmart for used oil recycling to be kind to the Earth).
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
dOOdfOOd, I appreciate Pablo's explanation and your support of his explanation. Pablo may be right. As a novice, I gotta ask what oils used lead as an Anti-Wear agent? As 21Rouge noted, my previous oils were PP, M1, and Valvoline dino. Do any of those oils use lead as an AW agent?
I may well be wrong on this but the only brand I've heard of that uses lead as part of its additive package are the NEO products. I've only seen NEO mentioned here occasionally, and have visited their website occasionally, so I don't know much about them. There may well be others, and if so, I'd welcome someone else to enlighten us.
Is lead something that is allowed in the making of oil? With all the [censored] going on with lead safe construction practices I would have thought lead is out of almost everything in a liquid form? Including fuel, oil, most if not all paints, etc? Just asking that's all.
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
dOOdfOOd, I appreciate Pablo's explanation and your support of his explanation. Pablo may be right. As a novice, I gotta ask what oils used lead as an Anti-Wear agent? As 21Rouge noted, my previous oils were PP, M1, and Valvoline dino. Do any of those oils use lead as an AW agent?
I may well be wrong on this but the only brand I've heard of that uses lead as part of its additive package are the NEO products. I've only seen NEO mentioned here occasionally, and have visited their website occasionally, so I don't know much about them. There may well be others, and if so, I'd welcome someone else to enlighten us.
Is lead something that is allowed in the making of oil? With all the [censored] going on with lead safe construction practices I would have thought lead is out of almost everything in a liquid form? Including fuel, oil, most if not all paints, etc? Just asking that's all.
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Been gone for 6 months, but it's time for another oil change, so I figured I'd check in with the 'perts (experts)
I'll have to check the odometer, but I must have between 3,000 and 4,000 miles on my second fill of RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30. I won't be getting a UOA this time--can't afford it--unless someone wants to pick up the tab? ;-)
I'll be putting in Amsoil SSO sometime in the next few days. This will be my first fill of Amsoil ever. I'll get a Blackstone UOA on the second Amsoil fill. Will probably drive between 5,000 and 7,500 miles with each fill of SSO. Wow, that stuff got here fast. Ordered on Monday. Got here by UPS on Wednesday, from the Wichita warehouse. Only $9.xx for 17 pounds of shipping (2 gallons and a quart), but had to pay another $5.xx for sales tax. Don't know why Amsoil dinged me for the sales tax since this was an interstate internet sale.
I've said it many times, and I will KEEP saying it - this is such an insane waste of good oil!!!
5-7,500 mile OCI's on $10/quart Amsoil, when it has been proven that this can be done COMFORTABLY on $2-4 conventional!
So, so let me get this straight - you can't afford a UOA on your fill of RLI, but you CAN afford about $100 worth of Amsoil, that you will run to about 1/2 of it's capabability!!!
Oh, I love the lunacy that has taken over this site!!!
I change my oil every 6k with redline. Since you probally think that's a waste (but I enjoy changing my oil) I can send you my used oil? So you can use it in your cavalier, I'm sure you could go another 6k. Save ya some money
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Been gone for 6 months, but it's time for another oil change, so I figured I'd check in with the 'perts (experts)
I'll have to check the odometer, but I must have between 3,000 and 4,000 miles on my second fill of RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30. I won't be getting a UOA this time--can't afford it--unless someone wants to pick up the tab? ;-)
I'll be putting in Amsoil SSO sometime in the next few days. This will be my first fill of Amsoil ever. I'll get a Blackstone UOA on the second Amsoil fill. Will probably drive between 5,000 and 7,500 miles with each fill of SSO. Wow, that stuff got here fast. Ordered on Monday. Got here by UPS on Wednesday, from the Wichita warehouse. Only $9.xx for 17 pounds of shipping (2 gallons and a quart), but had to pay another $5.xx for sales tax. Don't know why Amsoil dinged me for the sales tax since this was an interstate internet sale.
I've said it many times, and I will KEEP saying it - this is such an insane waste of good oil!!!
5-7,500 mile OCI's on $10/quart Amsoil, when it has been proven that this can be done COMFORTABLY on $2-4 conventional!
So, so let me get this straight - you can't afford a UOA on your fill of RLI, but you CAN afford about $100 worth of Amsoil, that you will run to about 1/2 of it's capabability!!!
Oh, I love the lunacy that has taken over this site!!!
I change my oil every 6k with redline. Since you probally think that's a waste (but I enjoy changing my oil) I can send you my used oil? So you can use it in your cavalier, I'm sure you could go another 6k. Save ya some money
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