Risks of running a lower pressure bypass

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by JoelB
I'm getting about 37mpg with mostly in town driving. I've seen 40mpg on a longer highway run. These cars are cheap to buy and cheap to run. Something about that is very satisfying to my brain and my love of efficiency.


Sounds pretty good.
Not as good as my Accord Hybrid, but you probably got the pair of Sparks for the same money that I paid for the Accord.
These Sparks should be simple cars and should go a long way with little need for mechanical attention. These are the new Geo Metros, in company with the Mitsubishi Mirage, although either is a far safer, more comfortable, faster and better equipped car then any Metro ever dreamed of being.
If the recession which now looks to be in the offing comes, your cars will appreciate in residual value while the residuals of larger thirstier vehicles will plummet.
It's happened before and it'll happen again.

 

[Ablebody]

I'd check out the wix filter that is made for your cars(if there is one) I've noticed they seem to try and taylor their filters to the oem specs. I found that with my moms Chevy spark they were the only one I saw that had the correct bp pressure other than acdelco. The Delco filter seems like a fine filter itself too.

 

[Ablebody]

Originally Posted by goodtimes
Don't use the wrong filters or you can damage the engine due to oil pump flow rates. The PF64 has the correct bypass. That's why GM put out the bulletin, and they are the engineers who designed the engines, not some guy on an oil filter forum. Ask your GM dealer.


Good advice

 

[Ablebody]

Wix WL10001 is the filter I found for moms 2013spark. It has the correct bp setting. There is no xg or tg filter made for it. There's an eg but it doesn't have the correct bp setting.

 

[JoelB]

I believe in 2016 chevy dropped a new 1.4L motor in the spark, AFAIK the older sparks did not require a higher bypass rated filter, unless it's back specced.

Also, I thought the PF64 was a standard bypass rated filter (9-12 psi or something). Which was confusing to me that my car came with one from the factory. That feels like GM saying it really doesn't matter if you have the higher bypass rating.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by JoelB
I believe the proper ultra here is the XG12060 which doesn't exist yet. I saw post about it coming out here but it never seems to have been released. I'll just keep using the UPF64R filters until i can get the proper Ultra. They are decently priced on rockauto and seem to be pretty well built.


According to Motorking (who works for Fram) the XG12060 is ready but Fram's retail customers wanted the catalogs reprinted first, so the release for this filter is not until Jan 2019. My Corvette uses the PF64, so I'm going to use the XG12060 when it comes out. I ran the XG10060 on my last interval and the UOA still trended downward on wear on my fresh engine, so that's a good sign. But even still, I don't like the idea of having a filter that could possibly go into bypass more often than normal (and I don't want a reason for a warranty claim being denied if something happens), so for my current interval I'm running the NAPA Gold 100290, which has the 22psi bypass. By the time I do my next oil change in the late spring/early summer I am sure I'll be able to find the XG12060.

 

[irv]

I remember this topic being discussed not long ago so I looked into it a bit more where it concerned my wife's 2017 3.6 Chev Impala.

I got these right off a Impala forum. Not saying this is gospel but this is one guys take on things that, imo, has some merit.
Thoughts?

My take on this whole bypass valve thing is that the higher (22 psi) relief pressure is beneficial ONLY if the filter isn't changed for extended periods. I suspect GM revised the filter spec only to show a longer service life. Internal filter pressure builds as the medium becomes clogged with debris, so a higher relief pressure allows more particulates to build up before a bypass condition is reached. That's all.

A higher bypass relief pressure is NOT more beneficial for the motor than a lower one. In fact, it's worse. For those of us who change our filters with every oil change, a lower relief pressure (eg. 12 - 15 psi) is preferable, because this provides better oil flow into the engine components during cold start conditions.

I've been using a Bosch 3502 oil filter ever since I bought the car. I drain the oil and change the filter about ever 3K miles (at about 60% on the Oil Life display), and I ALWAYS send a used oil sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis. Every report I get back is a rave review. My wear metals are all well below average for an LFX motor, and everything else looks great too.

Trust me, if you change your oil and filter reasonably often, you want a lower bypass pressure. On the other hand, if you want to leave that filter in the car until [censored] freezes over, go with a filter having a higher bypass pressure, but expect more engine wear. Just sayin'.


And another.

Hmm, so my 2012 Impala isn't listed - I guess I don't have to worry about, eh? We keep talking about making sure to reference the latest manufacturer documentation, so surely this doesn't apply to me?

But seriously, this document is nothing new - it's just stating that if you use *cheap* aftermarket oil filters and they fail, it's on you. That is nothing new, is not specific to GM cars and is common-sense, if you ask me.

However, *any* oil filter can fail - even AC-Delco filters - did you ever see the pictures of the insides of the PFxxe oil filters? People have posted pictures of the oil filter media being sucked into the engine with those as well - mainly because of the poorly constructed backing material (plastic) and the size of the "holes" in it. They are definitely not what I would consider high-quality oil filters. Sure, GM will cover the damage if it's an AC-Delco filter, but I'd rather not have the damage in the first place.

The Wix filters that people have been discussing are VERY high-quality filters. The information is out there (although, a LOT of the photobucket pictures are now gone!) - whether someone uses that information to make their decision or simply relies on a GM document, that is on them. But we do have to remember that GM makes money from AC-Delco sales, so they are biased - they are never going to tell you that X brand of oil filters are better that AC-Delco...

In the end, my goal is to not need repairs - warranty coverage or not - so I'm going to use products that reduce the chances of failure as much as possible, whatever the brand. I typically *do* use AC-Delco for most parts, but in the case of the e-core oil filters, I don't feel that they are the best option based on the information I've seen and read.

To each their own though. I think we've beaten this whole oil filter topic to death now. It's obvious that GM wants you to use parts that they make money from - regardless of whether they truly are "better" or not - and we have to keep that in mind. Also, let's not forget that they have reduced the warranty coverage, and most people will not see an oil-related failure within the warranty period anyway.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Nice info, irv!

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by irv
... ... For those of us who change our filters with every oil change, a lower relief pressure (eg. 12 - 15 psi) is preferable, because this provides better oil flow into the engine components during cold start conditions. ...
That's highly questionable. A lower relief pressure would have the disadvantage of increasing probability of unfiltered oil getting into bearings, BUT the advantage of reducing risk of media tearing.

Specifying extraordinarily high bypass pressure to minimize bypass events seems to me a much poorer solution than simply specifying a filter of adequate size.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by irv
I remember this topic being discussed not long ago so I looked into it a bit more where it concerned my wife's 2017 3.6 Chev Impala.

I got these right off a Impala forum. Not saying this is gospel but this is one guys take on things that, imo, has some merit.
Thoughts?

My take on this whole bypass valve thing is that the higher (22 psi) relief pressure is beneficial ONLY if the filter isn't changed for extended periods. I suspect GM revised the filter spec only to show a longer service life. Internal filter pressure builds as the medium becomes clogged with debris, so a higher relief pressure allows more particulates to build up before a bypass condition is reached. That's all.

A higher bypass relief pressure is NOT more beneficial for the motor than a lower one. In fact, it's worse. For those of us who change our filters with every oil change, a lower relief pressure (eg. 12 - 15 psi) is preferable, because this provides better oil flow into the engine components during cold start conditions.

I've been using a Bosch 3502 oil filter ever since I bought the car. I drain the oil and change the filter about ever 3K miles (at about 60% on the Oil Life display), and I ALWAYS send a used oil sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis. Every report I get back is a rave review. My wear metals are all well below average for an LFX motor, and everything else looks great too.

Trust me, if you change your oil and filter reasonably often, you want a lower bypass pressure. On the other hand, if you want to leave that filter in the car until [censored] freezes over, go with a filter having a higher bypass pressure, but expect more engine wear. Just sayin'.


And another.

Hmm, so my 2012 Impala isn't listed - I guess I don't have to worry about, eh? We keep talking about making sure to reference the latest manufacturer documentation, so surely this doesn't apply to me?

But seriously, this document is nothing new - it's just stating that if you use *cheap* aftermarket oil filters and they fail, it's on you. That is nothing new, is not specific to GM cars and is common-sense, if you ask me.

However, *any* oil filter can fail - even AC-Delco filters - did you ever see the pictures of the insides of the PFxxe oil filters? People have posted pictures of the oil filter media being sucked into the engine with those as well - mainly because of the poorly constructed backing material (plastic) and the size of the "holes" in it. They are definitely not what I would consider high-quality oil filters. Sure, GM will cover the damage if it's an AC-Delco filter, but I'd rather not have the damage in the first place.

The Wix filters that people have been discussing are VERY high-quality filters. The information is out there (although, a LOT of the photobucket pictures are now gone!) - whether someone uses that information to make their decision or simply relies on a GM document, that is on them. But we do have to remember that GM makes money from AC-Delco sales, so they are biased - they are never going to tell you that X brand of oil filters are better that AC-Delco...



In the end, my goal is to not need repairs - warranty coverage or not - so I'm going to use products that reduce the chances of failure as much as possible, whatever the brand. I typically *do* use AC-Delco for most parts, but in the case of the e-core oil filters, I don't feel that they are the best option based on the information I've seen and read.

To each their own though. I think we've beaten this whole oil filter topic to death now. It's obvious that GM wants you to use parts that they make money from - regardless of whether they truly are "better" or not - and we have to keep that in mind. Also, let's not forget that they have reduced the warranty coverage, and most people will not see an oil-related failure within the warranty period anyway.


All those filters having media being sucked-in to the engine, were from the original Ecore filters many years ago.
Not happening anymore Irv. Been fixed for quite a few years now. Just beware of old filters still on shelves at mom & dad auto-part stores. Buy more current production Ecores. They are fine....... ie..... Supertechs advertised to go 10K nowadays.
My wife's Malibu has a Supertech Ecore that's currently at 8K and about to be changed-out.

 

[JoelB]

Certainly some interesting discussion, but it's still just more speculating. I was thinking about one thing though. At least in the case of the spark, people use these things as appliances. I would guess a high percentage of people owning a spark (higher than say someone owning a corvette) don't care about oil and filters and really know nothing about it. So they're going to go to the quicklube place and get some bargain basement filter, likely not meeting the higher bypass rating.

I guess that's not really any sort of solution but it makes me think I might be overthinking the issue.

 

[Scargod]

I can't find another thread that is as relevant, so I'll tack my question on here. I have Subarus with EJ flat four engines.
Previously there was the comment: "The issue with Subaru turbocharged engines was, older spec 6-9psi-d would bypass and dump sludge into the turbo bearing oil feed screen."
First, the spec has long been 23-27 PSID for most engines! Secondly, is the filter bypassing and dumping "sludge" into the system, what clogs the tiny screens in the banjo bolts leading to the turbo? Yes, clogging screens was a big problem.
So, my question is: With an inverted filter like the EJ's have, what gets into the system when the filter bypasses?

Does crud typically stay lodged in, or trapped by, the media and pleats or is there a pool of sediment in the bottom of the filter for the oil to sweep up when it bypasses? I confess, I've never cut open a filter...
Seems that over time or with an older engine that was not cared for, that the potential of there being crud in a filter that could be introduced into the engine in a bypass event could be high. An event that could happen if the oil is cold and it was revved too high at first. Some say, and this seems more logical, that only a fraction of the oil bypasses (when it happens). Only enough oil passes through the valve as to satisfy the amount of pressure differential that must be relieved.
If you change your oil filter regularly could you still run the risk of bypass and doing damage? Does anyone know what a bypass event actually sweeps up and spits out?
There could be the argument that if you are collecting metal bits then you have bigger fish to fry. However, it's not uncommon for a turbo CHRA (Center Housing Rotating Assembly or core assembly) to start eating itself. Hopefully the noise and performance degradation ends its misery, but the oil filter needs to catch the metal or ceramic it's chewing up. I've seen a few engines where the filter did its job, but I could see a filter bypass event causing destruction to the rest of the engine if it occurred.
My question is partly because I have a race car where I run an external, large Royal Purple filter with 65.5 cubic inches (stock is 15 CI). I've also run 33% and 50% larger filters on my daily driver Subaru because headers allow me to. They have 20-26 and 11-17 PSID bypass valves (vs stock 23-27) . Part of my quandary is giving advice, or recommending these larger filters to others and what might happen in a "perfect storm" event.
One person's comment that a bypass event was no big deal has got me to wondering. Could it be like flushing the toilet or not?

 

[Al]

So what if some oil jgues thru the bypass. That oil has been filtered a few seconds before. Old VW's never even had an oil filter.

I refuse to believe why a manufacturer like Subaru (for instance) needs to have a higher bypass filter when no one else does. I doubt they know more than ford, toyots, GM, Mazda..on and on. And I am an admitted Subary fanboy.

I used regular non OEM filters in my subarus for 14 years with no problems.

 

[Greasymechtech]

I prefer lower bypass

 

[ZeeOSix]

I prefer lower bypass

Why? Lower bypass means more dirty oil bypassing the media.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Dirty oil? Without a bypass filter, your oil with ANY full flow filter is dirty. So, that more dirty oil argument is meaningless.

Ever see a fully sludged oil filter? How many had high or low bypass pressures?

The filter is in bypass more than many want to believe. So, more dirty oil means nothing.

Flow vs filtration.... something to consider with the current pathetic engineering R&D that the consumers are performing for the automakers.

Higher bypass isn't a bandaid for bad engineering or negligent oil change intervals regardless of what the automaker states.

 

[Scargod]

Dare I mention 540RAT? A few days ago someone mentioned him... I went down the rabbit hole for three hours the first time I started reading it. Anyhow, the point was made many times about the bad design of a bypass valve at the bottom of a filter, where sediment and gunk can and will eventually sit.
Not that it's normal, but having a tiny filter isn't either. Not normal, is people who don't change their oil at regular intervals and let the filter get clogged so that it goes into bypass on startup and all that has settled out overnight gets introduced to the engine.
To me, a lower bypass means you have a lot more filter media than a stock Subaru has.

 

[Scargod]

Dirty oil? Without a bypass filter, your oil with ANY full flow filter is dirty. So, that more dirty oil argument is meaningless.

Ever see a fully sludged oil filter? How many had high or low bypass pressures?

The filter is in bypass more than many want to believe. So, more dirty oil means nothing.

Flow vs filtration.... something to consider with the current pathetic engineering R&D that the consumers are performing for the automakers.

Higher bypass isn't a bandaid for bad engineering or negligent oil change intervals regardless of what the automaker states.

I've heard this before, possibly from you. Anyway, I don't agree with your mantra. I don't see any value in your comments.
Who mentioner a full-flow filter? I'm not even going to go there.
It's "in bypass more than people want to believe"? That's meaningless.
"Dirty oil means nothing"? Then, by your comment, it sounds like you are saying that all filters are pointless.
In the case of the tiny surface area of a Subaru filter I would agree it's a band-aid, but you didn't qualify your statement so I can't agree there. Perhaps you are saying all filters are poorly engineered?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Dirty oil? Without a bypass filter, your oil with ANY full flow filter is dirty. So, that more dirty oil argument is meaningless.

Ever see a fully sludged oil filter? How many had high or low bypass pressures?

What's a sludged oil filter have to do with its bypass valve setting? If someone is letting a filter sludge up that much, there are going to be better off with a higher set bypass valve than not.

The filter is in bypass more than many want to believe. So, more dirty oil means nothing.

Mostly only when the oil is cold, and if the engine is revved up pretty good before the oil warms up. Once the oil is warmed up, it's pretty rare to get a filter to hit bypass unless the filter is super clogged. Jim Allen member here did some filter bypass valve testing in real world driving conditions and found that out. Of course if someone lets a filter load way up or get "sludged", then the bypass valve can open way more often.

Flow vs filtration.... something to consider with the current pathetic engineering R&D that the consumers are performing for the automakers.

What's flow vs filtration have to do with a filter bypass setting? Lots of filters these days can flow like crazy and also have high filtering efficiency. A filter that flows better and has a higher holding capacity doesn't need as high of a bypass valve setting.

Higher bypass isn't a bandaid for bad engineering or negligent oil change intervals regardless of what the automaker states.

Don't think a higher bypass valve setting is ever meant to be a "band-aid" for maintenance neglect. GM increased their AC-Delco bypass valve setting specs for a reason per their TSB. Like said many times, the bypass valve setting is based on the filter design as much as it is on the vehicle the filter is used on.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Dare I mention 540RAT? A few days ago someone mentioned him... I went down the rabbit hole for three hours the first time I started reading it. Anyhow, the point was made many times about the bad design of a bypass valve at the bottom of a filter, where sediment and gunk can and will eventually sit.

Oh no ... now 540RAT is trying to be an oil filter expert? The mounting position of the filter should also be a consideration. I like the bypass valve being in the dome end when the filter is mounted base down and verticle. If the filter is mounted base up, then obviously a base end bypass valve would be better. If the filter is mounted horizontally, it may not matter too much were the bypass valve is.

Not that it's normal, but having a tiny filter isn't either. Not normal, is people who don't change their oil at regular intervals and let the filter get clogged so that it goes into bypass on startup and all that has settled out overnight gets introduced to the engine.

Yes, overall a higher bypass valve setting is good unless: 1) The media and center tube can't take the max delta-p that the bypass valve will allow, or 2) The PD oil pump hits pressure relief before the filter bypass valve opens - but I'd think that would be a rare occurrence.