reports of Tmax problems running Amsoil

[VicL]

Everytime I change motorcycles I join a good owner's forum to check on news, maintenance tips, etc. I just bought a Yamaha Majesty, and for some reason part of the forum is dedicated to Yamaha's fairly new Tmax 500cc scooter. Found some interesting reports here that I thought should be shared.

First, most scooters run a dry clutch, but the Tmax clutch is "wet" like motorcycles. So it has to run the JASO MA rated oil. There have been a few reports on the MajestyUSA.com forum that Tmax owners who have run Amsoil motorcycle oil in these scooters have ruined their clutch.

This thread is a good example of an owner who's clutch plates had to be replaced after using Amsoil motorcycle oil: http://majestyusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8854 In the thread at least one other Tmax owner mentioned that he had clutch slippage with the Amsoil.

Not trying to diss Amsoil here, but if specific bikes have problems then its good to know.

Vic

 

[Donald]

Has anyone talked to Amsoil? Is the oil they used approved for the grade called for in their owners manual?

 

[VicL]

The guy who started that thread said he was going to talk to Amsoil about the problem... who knows the result? Or even if his complaint went beyond the person/company that sold it?


Vic

 

[VicL]

Yamaha owner's manual for the Tmax just specifies 10W-30 or 10W-40 SG or higher JASO MA. But they have a specific warning in the book, "In order to reduce clutch slippage" not to use oil of higher quality than specified. That's rich, they don't say but seem to imply that synthetic oils shouldn't be used. However, the only synthetic oil that was reported (that I could find) to cause a problem was the Amsoil.

Vic

 

[Smoky14]

Another problem some motorcycles have is, if they use an over running clutch in the starter system the dogs won't engage because synthetic oil is too slick and the dogs just slide on the shaft.
Sometimes great is too good.

 

[demarpaint]

Looks like a case where using what the mfg specs, and not what the oil company or a salesman recommends is the way to go.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Looks like a case where using what the mfg specs, and not what the oil company or a salesman recommends is the way to go.


Looks like he used an oil that meets what is specified, MA.

Or we need a lawyer to interpret "better than" - not from Amsoil, but from Yamaha! Sounds more like a design or materials issue, not an oil issue. Why would a manufacturer design a product that couldn't use a modern synthetic oil that meets or exceeds the OEM recommendation? Really, really lame. Also read all the posts - especially the German guy.

 

[demarpaint]

I'll stick with my original comments. Seems another person running Amsoil is having problems as well.

The mechanic told the OP in the thread this: "Mechanic showed me the clutch plates which had obviously been heated (6000 rpm to do 10 mph for about two miles to the shop will do that!) But they were NOT worn.

Cause of slipping: oil. As I posted above, I had used Amsoil synthetic motorcycle oil with all the correct classifications and the statement that it was good for wet clutches. According to the mechanic, these super oils bond friction-reducing compounds to the metal. Works great in cylinder bores, not so good on clutch plates."

I'm sure if Amsoil looks at the clutch they'll have something to say to the contrary. I'd stick with what the bike maker recommends and call it a day.

As a salesman I see your POV, as a possible consumer having to foot the bill for the clutch job, I'd stick to the OEM recommendations. JMO

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd stick with what the bike maker recommends ...... I'd stick to the OEM recommendations.


So tell me how this doesn't meet "OEM recommendations"?

Amsoil MCF 10W-40

 

[demarpaint]

Is it a case where Amsoil says it meets the specification, like they do with so many of their other products? Misleading to many people, we've beaten that horse before haven't we? Amsoil is funny like that.

Bottom line is two people had a problem with the oil, a mechanic said it was the oil, time for a change wouldn't you think? This is the Internet right? So who should I believe, two people with a problem, one verified and confirmed by a mechanic that the oil was the cause. Another guy using oil from the same company with a very similar problem. Or do I believe the Amsoil guy with over 40,000 posts trying to sell and defend product every chance he gets? Tough decision for some people, not me though.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Is it a case where Amsoil says it meets the specification, like they do with so many of their other products? Misleading to many people, we've beaten that horse before haven't we? Amsoil is funny like that.



No it is NOT like you imagine, think, or try to pass on.....

What is misleading? Yes you beat that horse every chance you get.

Please tell me what specs MCF doesn't meet and I will have a funny laugh. Because, my friend, you are wrong.

The guy used an approved product. He has a problem and you want to make it Amsoil's problem. Bias? Naw, that wouldn't happen.

 

[demarpaint]

Don't worry Pablo Amsoil is off the hook, the guy drives the bike hard. Once legal catches wind of that all bets are off if he did try and make a claim.

I'll keep it simple for those who don't fully know all the terminology. The truth is with all the claims Amsoil makes about approvals and certifications, products that meet API and mfg approvals [you know the ones they have to pay for], then they make the claims that they meet/exceed specs they don't pay for [but the product is safe to use and exceeds the spec anyway], the average person's head spins. Lets not forget their 4 ball testing either. Good thing they have you here to jump in sell and defend every chance you get!

Maybe the product exceeded the spec and is too slick? Either way the clutch is shot. Cheers!

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: Pablo


Why would a manufacturer design a product that couldn't use a modern synthetic oil that meets or exceeds the OEM recommendation? Really, really lame.


Not really Barnett high performance clutches specifically recommend you do not use synthetic oil with their products.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Pablo


Why would a manufacturer design a product that couldn't use a modern synthetic oil that meets or exceeds the OEM recommendation? Really, really lame.


Not really Barnett high performance clutches specifically recommend you do not use synthetic oil with their products.


I'll bet they discovered that after use in the field. So does Yamaha say the same in writing?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Don't worry Pablo Amsoil is off the hook, the guy drives the bike hard. Once legal catches wind of that all bets are off if he did try and make a claim.


I'm not sure exactly what your problem is, but why are you writing these things? "Legal"? Amsoil has no disclaimers about riding hard. Racing sure, but riding hard, no. Just because you totally miss the point, no need to get all huffy. My point is not to get Amsoil "off the hook", but speak the truth. Amsoil MCF is MA. You were claiming all sorts of thing, statements that are simply not true.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'll keep it simple for those who don't fully know all the terminology. The truth is with all the claims Amsoil makes about approvals and certifications, products that meet API and mfg approvals [you know the ones they have to pay for], then they make the claims that they meet/exceed specs they don't pay for [but the product is safe to use and exceeds the spec anyway], the average person's head spins. Lets not forget their 4 ball testing either. Good thing they have you here to jump in sell and defend every chance you get!


Again the oil meets the requirements. Just because you don't like it, you type all kinds of weird statements that have nothing to do with this thread - claiming you are keeping it "simple for those who don't fully know all the terminology." What the heck is that? Based on what you typed in this thread, people should just not believe what you wrote if you are truly interested in keeping it simple.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Maybe the product exceeded the spec and is too slick? Either way the clutch is shot. Cheers!


I'm not exactly sure what happened. We are always told on BITOG that synthetic oils are not "more slick". Since Amsoil MCF is JASO-MA2 I would think it's not all that "slick", ie it has the DFI (Dynamic friction) requirement >/= 1.85 -

 

[demarpaint]

Sorry Pablo I'll stick with what the mechanic said, and the fact that another poster had a problem with Amsoil as well. Doog's statement seems to back that up as well. Maybe Amsoil wasn't the best choice for that application, hard to admit for you, tough to prove one way or the other for both of us.

Just for the record, I didn't say synthetic oil was too slick. I said, maybe the product was too slick.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Sorry Pablo I'll stick with what the mechanic said, and the fact that another poster had a problem with Amsoil as well. Doog's statement seems to back that up as well. Maybe Amsoil wasn't the best choice for that application, hard to admit for you, tough to prove one way or the other for both of us.


It may not be the best choice. Why would this be hard for me to admit? Apparently the tough part for you seems to be admitting you erred. I will let your other false allegations go, because it's the usual from you. But this one is just rattling around:
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd stick with what the bike maker recommends ...... I'd stick to the OEM recommendations.


Then you couldn't actually cite those recommendations and of course you are clearly insinuating (stating!) that Amsoil MCF doesn't meet those recommendations! Ouch - dude. It clearly does. All I ask is that you slow down. Be reasonable and drop the bias already.

The guy used a recommended oil and apparently it didn't work. This does not automatically mean it's the fault of the oil. Perhaps the OEM didn't fully explore the range of all the oil's parameters within the specification. I am studying this one deeper and will post any information I find out.

 

[Mackelroy]

Amsoil makes alot of products, which oil did he actually use?


Some of their car oils are not made for wet clutches.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
Amsoil makes alot of products, which oil did he actually use?


Some of their car oils are not made for wet clutches.


I thought he used MCF, (10W-40 MC oil), but I did see reference to MCV (20W-50 MC oil) at the beginning.
Quote:
Amsoil Synthetic Motorcycle Oil 20W-50


Well I should have slowed down. He WAS using 20W-50! That is some serious thick oil for the application. HTHS 6.1, KV is 20@100°C. He should have been using 10W-40

His reasons:

Quote:
lots of the Amsoil 20-50W left over from my wrecked BMW


Not some sales guy recommendation as mentioned earlier in this thread.

Yeah he switched back to 10W-40. And the so called other case is just hearsay. Enough said.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Pablo


The guy used a recommended oil and apparently it didn't work. This does not automatically mean it's the fault of the oil. Perhaps the OEM didn't fully explore the range of all the oil's parameters within the specification. I am studying this one deeper and will post any information I find out.


OK so we agree the oil didn't work.

Now to help clear things up for me, [since so many of the Amsoil products aren't certified, but those products, according to Amsoil meet and beat all kinds of specs regardless] who "recommended" the oil, Amsoil, an Amsoil dealer, or the actual bike maker? Is it actually approved by the mfg? Or is this a case of Amsoil stating it meets the requirements? That might help clear things up a bit.

I'm sure you'll dig deeper into this, that's a no brainer.