Reducing wear at startup on a low service engine
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Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: lanteau
I just tried it again, making sure the pedal was all the way down, and it worked! Just kept cranking! This is pretty cool. EEC-IV FTW! lol
Or every Domestic manufacturer since the 80s FTW lol.
ROFLCOPTER!
Yeah, its documented in the GUFB, which is like the EEC-IV bible, so AFAIK, every EEC-IV equipped Ford vehicle should have it.
Originally Posted By: lanteau
I just tried it again, making sure the pedal was all the way down, and it worked! Just kept cranking! This is pretty cool. EEC-IV FTW! lol
Or every Domestic manufacturer since the 80s FTW lol.
ROFLCOPTER!
Yeah, its documented in the GUFB, which is like the EEC-IV bible, so AFAIK, every EEC-IV equipped Ford vehicle should have it.
I'll have to try this in my 86 F150 5.0 EFI.
Does everyone think this is beneficial to the engine for start up wear? I guess, in theory, it's easier on the engine while it gets a fresh coat of oil than while the pistons are being fired down at 1500RPM on a cold morning.
Does everyone think this is beneficial to the engine for start up wear? I guess, in theory, it's easier on the engine while it gets a fresh coat of oil than while the pistons are being fired down at 1500RPM on a cold morning.
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I'm sure it is beneficial. Whether you are going to be able to measure it in sensible terms is the $64,000 question.
Spinning the motor over won't through oil on the ring packs. Just start it up and drive off easily. To much is put into this start up wear junk. I have pulled motors apart the have sat for years and everything is still oily. The only dry start I can think of is if you put the motor together dry then started it.
Originally Posted By: KW
Spinning the motor over won't through oil on the ring packs. Just start it up and drive off easily. To much is put into this start up wear junk. I have pulled motors apart the have sat for years and everything is still oily. The only dry start I can think of is if you put the motor together dry then started it.
gee, sorry for cluttering up the forum
Spinning the motor over won't through oil on the ring packs. Just start it up and drive off easily. To much is put into this start up wear junk. I have pulled motors apart the have sat for years and everything is still oily. The only dry start I can think of is if you put the motor together dry then started it.
gee, sorry for cluttering up the forum
Originally Posted By: zoomie
Originally Posted By: KW
Spinning the motor over won't through oil on the ring packs. Just start it up and drive off easily. To much is put into this start up wear junk. I have pulled motors apart the have sat for years and everything is still oily. The only dry start I can think of is if you put the motor together dry then started it.
gee, sorry for cluttering up the forum
Sorry! I was just discussing my view of start up wear. Cool topic!! Just adding my 2 cents
Originally Posted By: KW
Spinning the motor over won't through oil on the ring packs. Just start it up and drive off easily. To much is put into this start up wear junk. I have pulled motors apart the have sat for years and everything is still oily. The only dry start I can think of is if you put the motor together dry then started it.
gee, sorry for cluttering up the forum
Sorry! I was just discussing my view of start up wear. Cool topic!! Just adding my 2 cents
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Ya. IIRC, it called a slow fire system. It has to count so many "pips" from the camshaft or crankshaft sensor. My Tacoma does that.
The Blazer I had before fired right away...when it started at all.
By 26K miles it would crank forever before starting. I don't know what was wrong with it that time. Wierd.
Many manufacturer's program the car to turn over several times before starting for this very reason.
Notice most cars no longer start with one key hit like some of the older fuel injected and carbed cars used to. Extended cranking isn't bad for anything except the starter. It also prevents dry starts after an oil change or because of a faulty ADBV. I only do it if my car has sat for several days without being started or after an oil change to make sure the system is fully primed.
Ya. IIRC, it called a slow fire system. It has to count so many "pips" from the camshaft or crankshaft sensor. My Tacoma does that.
The Blazer I had before fired right away...when it started at all.
By 26K miles it would crank forever before starting. I don't know what was wrong with it that time. Wierd.
Many manufacturer's program the car to turn over several times before starting for this very reason.
Notice most cars no longer start with one key hit like some of the older fuel injected and carbed cars used to. Extended cranking isn't bad for anything except the starter. It also prevents dry starts after an oil change or because of a faulty ADBV. I only do it if my car has sat for several days without being started or after an oil change to make sure the system is fully primed.
The current trend is the "90% of your engine wear happens at startup" advertising ploy. This fact is absolutely true, but as it happens, it's less to to with "grinding engine parts" and more to do with combustion. When the combustion gases burn, they form acids which are highly corrosive when their vapours condense. These acids collect in the upper cylinder areas where their temperature is raised above their dew point. The acids condense and etch the cylinder walls and piston rings. In reality, this accounts for over 85% of engine wear, the other 15% being down to abrasion. So the adverts are nearly right - most of the engine wear does happen at startup, and it is because of a lack of oil, but it isn't because the oil isn't coating moving parts - it's because it's not transporting these acidic gases away. Having said that, if you start the engine and let it idle for 15 seconds or so before moving off, you can probably add another 100,000 miles to your engine's life without one bottle of additive. This warms the oil up a tad and makes sure it's in all the most vital areas before you start putting a strain on the engine. Most handbooks tell you not to let the engine warm up before driving off (they're referring to the acid corrosion mentioned above), but they mean don't let it reach working temperature. If, however, you insist on starting up and belting off down the road, think of this next time: it takes an average engine around 3 minutes of average driving for the exhaust manifold to reach 300°C. If you blast off and run around at full throttle, right from the word go, that process takes a little under a minute. Think about it - from outside air temperature to 300°C in a minute - what exactly is that doing to the metal in your manifold? Ask anyone who's ever owned an original Audi Quattro - they'll tell you exactly what happens.
Good post Cpt. Klink!
Since you don't really have a straight weight 20 or 30, the difference is minute.
You probably are talking about a 5-20 or 5-30.
You probably are talking about a 5-20 or 5-30.
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In reality, this accounts for over 85% of engine wear, the other 15% being down to abrasion.
You're going to have to quote the paper where it states this. I will have a very hard time believing that this is responsible for the 20 minute retreating curve of cylinder ring wear. friendly_jack also held this assertion and gave it high merit.
20 minutes is long after cooling jackets are saturated and gallons of new lubricant applied.
You've got to give me the logic train in pony steps that an idiot can understand and not pull techno-double speak.
In reality, this accounts for over 85% of engine wear, the other 15% being down to abrasion.
You're going to have to quote the paper where it states this. I will have a very hard time believing that this is responsible for the 20 minute retreating curve of cylinder ring wear. friendly_jack also held this assertion and gave it high merit.
20 minutes is long after cooling jackets are saturated and gallons of new lubricant applied.
You've got to give me the logic train in pony steps that an idiot can understand and not pull techno-double speak.
Originally Posted By: Captain_Klink
...Ask anyone who's ever owned an original Audi Quattro - they'll tell you exactly what happens.
That is pretty kewl, but I gotta know what happens to the exhaust manifold for the money...
...Ask anyone who's ever owned an original Audi Quattro - they'll tell you exactly what happens.
That is pretty kewl, but I gotta know what happens to the exhaust manifold for the money...
There's no such thing as "start-up wear".
Originally Posted By: zoomie
Originally Posted By: Captain_Klink
...Ask anyone who's ever owned an original Audi Quattro - they'll tell you exactly what happens.
That is pretty kewl, but I gotta know what happens to the exhaust manifold for the money...
Probably what happened to my Mercury Villager minivan: the exhaust manifold mounting bolts broke allowing a nice exhaust leak. Unfixable without removing the engine because of lack of clearance.
Originally Posted By: Captain_Klink
...Ask anyone who's ever owned an original Audi Quattro - they'll tell you exactly what happens.
That is pretty kewl, but I gotta know what happens to the exhaust manifold for the money...
Probably what happened to my Mercury Villager minivan: the exhaust manifold mounting bolts broke allowing a nice exhaust leak. Unfixable without removing the engine because of lack of clearance.
I just cut and pasted this from the internet after doing google search for startup wear. when the engine first starts, the cold will condense the combustion products gases, which are corrosive.
that's why i just buy a cheap timer and plug my car in every night, 365 days a year. timer runs for a few hours each morning, only.
That means the oil will last longer, because it does not have to absorb the condensed corrosive products of combustion.
it just looked like whoever wrote it knew what they were talking about.
that's why i just buy a cheap timer and plug my car in every night, 365 days a year. timer runs for a few hours each morning, only.
That means the oil will last longer, because it does not have to absorb the condensed corrosive products of combustion.
it just looked like whoever wrote it knew what they were talking about.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
And FWIW, the Toyota/Lex hybrids, which in urban driving do far more engine starting and stopping than most cars (mostly hot though) have a specifically programmed-in feature for starting. Motor-Generator-1 (the smaller one that's connected to the center shaft of the PGS) spins the ICE to about 1000 rpms before it orders up fuel and spark. This promotes smooth ICE starts, and ensures that the pump has built oil pressure before the ICE sees real driving loads on critical parts. These cars have neither traditional starters, nor alternators, nor PS pumps. MG1 in effect acts as both a starter motor and an alternator if needed (the inverters normally make plenty of AC drawing from the hefty current and voltage sent from the TB).
Anyway, all this suggests to me that there is legitimate concern about startup wear, even in a warm or hot engine. Why would have Toyota bothered with such systems if not?
You are correct, there is a concern of increased bearing wear in hot (but not cold) engine on restart. It is well explained in this PDF on page 4 under the paragraph Tempereture of the Oil (sorry, could not copy and paste):
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief11 - Internal Combustion Engine Lubrication.pdf
So, thicker is sometimes better.
I got the link from this thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/higher-viscosity-better-hydrodynamic-film.111196/
I'm surprised no one commented on this. It clearly shows the relationship between viscosity and protection.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
And FWIW, the Toyota/Lex hybrids, which in urban driving do far more engine starting and stopping than most cars (mostly hot though) have a specifically programmed-in feature for starting. Motor-Generator-1 (the smaller one that's connected to the center shaft of the PGS) spins the ICE to about 1000 rpms before it orders up fuel and spark. This promotes smooth ICE starts, and ensures that the pump has built oil pressure before the ICE sees real driving loads on critical parts. These cars have neither traditional starters, nor alternators, nor PS pumps. MG1 in effect acts as both a starter motor and an alternator if needed (the inverters normally make plenty of AC drawing from the hefty current and voltage sent from the TB).
Anyway, all this suggests to me that there is legitimate concern about startup wear, even in a warm or hot engine. Why would have Toyota bothered with such systems if not?
You are correct, there is a concern of increased bearing wear in hot (but not cold) engine on restart. It is well explained in this PDF on page 4 under the paragraph Tempereture of the Oil (sorry, could not copy and paste):
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief11 - Internal Combustion Engine Lubrication.pdf
So, thicker is sometimes better.
I got the link from this thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/higher-viscosity-better-hydrodynamic-film.111196/
I'm surprised no one commented on this. It clearly shows the relationship between viscosity and protection.
The article is very nice.
High viscosity oil has higher film strength, for heavy loading,
but at the expense of higher shearing at high rpm.
that means that at startup, if the oil is cold, and obviously it would be, and the engine goes into fast idle, which it normally does, then during this start up time, the oil is suffering maximum shear. that's another reason to use an oil pan heater and block heater when you can, and to keep the rpm low when running a cold engine.
also, hot restart could cause problems, because the residual oil film is hot, so the viscosity is low, and film strength is low.
this means it is not a good idea to switch an engine off, if you are stopped for a few minutes, like waiting to cross the border at the customs.
High viscosity oil has higher film strength, for heavy loading,
but at the expense of higher shearing at high rpm.
that means that at startup, if the oil is cold, and obviously it would be, and the engine goes into fast idle, which it normally does, then during this start up time, the oil is suffering maximum shear. that's another reason to use an oil pan heater and block heater when you can, and to keep the rpm low when running a cold engine.
also, hot restart could cause problems, because the residual oil film is hot, so the viscosity is low, and film strength is low.
this means it is not a good idea to switch an engine off, if you are stopped for a few minutes, like waiting to cross the border at the customs.
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